B16 užalil muslimane

Daedo.Morala se z družbo spreminja.Krščanska moralnost pa je ista celih 2000 let.A vidiš razliko med moralnostjo vezano na nauk in avtoriteto in moralnostjo glede na okoliščine?

Moralnost ateistov je moralnost prirejena glede na vzdušje družbe.V nacistični nemčiji je bilo povsem moralno obrcat Žida.

Daedo.Morala se z družbo spreminja.Krščanska moralnost pa je ista celih 2000 let.A vidiš razliko med moralnostjo vezano na nauk in avtoriteto in moralnostjo glede na okoliščine?

Moralnost ateistov je moralnost prirejena glede na vzdušje družbe.V nacistični nemčiji je bilo povsem moralno obrcat Žida

Ko že ravno omenjaš, Adolf Hitler, Nazi Germany: Christian Nationalism

Vsi ste isti, katoliki al pa muslimani, nobene bistvene razlike.

Dandanašnji je velika razlika se ti ne zdi jype? Medtem ko trume naivnih muslimanov zažiga in uničuje kar pride pod roke in pozivajo na neko sveto vojno to s strani druge strani ni čutiti kaj?

Moralnost je prirejena vzdušju povsod, tudi v cerkvi (preberi link od škofa Perkota).

Moralnost je definirana z desetimi zapovedmi.

OWCA.tvoj link je čista smet.Med vojaki so celo res bili kristjani ,ampak kakšno vezo ima to z krščanstvom?Si enak kot musliči,ki slišijo kar hočejo.

Poglej kako neumna je tvoja trditev.

Adolf-National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)









What were Hitler's religious beliefs?

It is sometimes said that Hitler was a believer in God and specifically that he was a Christian or at least was brought up as a Catholic. After all, weren’t most Austrians, certainly in the late 19th century, nominally Catholics? And what about the frequent references to “God” and “Providence” in his speeches, or to immortality, or the quasi-religious imagery of Nazism?

In contrast to his adult life, relatively little is known about Hitler's childhood and upbringing, and what we do know sheds only dim light on his religious persuasion. His mother was apparently a pious Catholic, according to Hitler's biographers, but Hitler’s own connection with the church during his early youth was not strong. We know he attended a nearby monastery for singing lessons, probably at his father’s behest (Ian Kershaw, Hitler: 1889 – 1936 Hubris, WW Norton, 2000), and that the young Hitler was impressed by the grandiose architecture of great churches. It can reasonably be said that, because of the region in which he was brought up, and the religious faith of at least one of his parents, Hitler was nominally a Catholic. Among his biographers, however, none assert that the boy was even baptized, although it is likely, and there is no evidence of any particularly strong religious element in his upbringing or of feelings of faith like those held by his mother.

So much for Hitler’s early life. What about his attitude to religion and the Church later on? In Mein Kampf (1925) Hitler criticized the Catholic Church in its political form, which he said failed to recognize Germany’s and Europe’s “racial problem”. His Party Charter for the nascent Nazional Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei demanded in Article 24, in contrast to strong Christian control of German’s spiritual life, “complete freedom of religion” (in so far, of course, as that was not a “danger to Germany”) (William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Arrow, 1991). Indeed, the official “Nazi Party Philosopher”, Alfred Rosenberg, (later to be hanged at Nuremberg), appointed of course with Hitler’s consent, was totally opposed to Christianity. However, Hitler the politician was also aware that to achieve power he would need to win votes from the Catholic Centre Party and could not afford total alienation.

Upon attaining office and enjoying a free hand, what line did Hitler take on religion and the Church? Five days after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Hitler allowed a sterilization law to pass, and had the Catholic Youth League disbanded (Shirer, The Rise). The latter was a measure applied to other youth organizations too, in order to free up young people to join the Hitler Youth. At the same time, Hitler also made an agreement with the Vatican to allow the Catholic Church to regulate its own affairs. (It is probably worth noting here the low value that Hitler placed on written agreements.) Parents were pressured to take their children out of religious schools. When the Church organized voluntary out-of-hours religious classes, the Nazi government responded by banning state-employed teachers from taking part. The Crucifix symbol was even at one point banned from classrooms in one particular jurisdiction, Oldenburg, in 1936, but the measure met with fierce public resistance and was rescinded. Hitler remained conscious of the affection for the Church felt in some quarters of Germany, particularly Bavaria. Later on, though, a wartime metal shortage was used as the excuse for melting church bells (Richard Grunberger, The Twelve Year Reich, Henry Holt, Henry Holt, 1979 and Richard Grunberger, A Social History of the Third Reich, Penguin, 1991).

Hitler’s references to providence and God and the ritualistic pageantry of Nazism were more than likely pagan than Christian. Earthly symbols of German valour and Teutonic strength were to be worshipped - not the forgiving, compassionate representative of an “Eastern Mediterranean servant ethic imposed on credulous ancient Germans by force and subterfuge” (the phrase is Burleigh’s own, in Michael Burleigh, The Third Reich: a New History, Pan, 2001). A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it:

We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.

(Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels.)

The SS were particularly anti-Christian, and officers and men were encouraged to leave the Church, although those that refused to renounce their Christian faith were not visibly punished, perhaps because their otherwise faithful adherence to SS codes of behaviour gave the lie to any claim of true Christian affiliation. The SS also brought in its own neo-pagan rituals for marriage ceremonies and baptisms.

At this time then, the only alignments between Nazism and Catholicism were the Church’s perceived anti-Semitism and anti-communism, and an abhorrence of abortions by healthy pregnant German women (although Hitler did diverge from the Church once again in 1939 when he authorized the medical extermination of mentally and physically handicapped children). As the war progressed and the Wehrmacht gained control of large parts of the Soviet Union, the question of the suppressed Russian Orthodox Christian sects surfaced. Hitler’s response was to leave them to their own devices “so they can beat each others’ brains out with their crucifixes”. He also had contempt for European Protestants: “as submissive as dogs” (Shirer, The Rise). In the debate about his spiritual leanings, Hitler is also sometimes alleged to have flirted with the occult, although in fact it was far more a passion of Himmler’s. For instance, Hitler loathed astrologers. Others close to him, such as Goering, were also dismissive of Himmler’s obsession with the supernatural and Hitler would no doubt have enjoyed Goebbels' joke, during one clampdown on eccentric religious types, that it was “odd that not a single one [of a group of arrested clairvoyants] predicted he would be arrested”. Goebbels would later try to rally Hitler in his bunker at the end of the war with astrological charts predicting victory but Hitler was still unmoved.

At times, Hitler was more pragmatic about religion: “If my mother were alive, she would definitely be a churchgoer, and I wouldn’t want to hinder her. On the contrary, you’ve got to respect the simple faith of the people”. If Hitler was motivated by a supreme being, or convinced that his success was providential, it is hard to see that he was referring to the same God worshipped by Christians. These elements of his orations were dramatic and poetic figures of speech, and the immortality he stood for was of the earthly type, in which heroic legends and monumentalist architecture alone would preserve a great name or event for generations. This analysis stands entirely apart from the actions committed in Hitler’s name which shatter any pretence of Christian leaning. In conclusion, it is reasonable beyond doubt to say that Hitler was not at any stage of his life a Christian.




In my wanderings through the Web, I have sometimes come across statements from Christians saying that Adolf Hitler was an atheist, and more often, statements from atheists saying that Hitler was a devout Christian. He seems to be a guy that nobody wants on their team, which I guess is fair enough, given the part that he played in humanity's bloodiest endeavour. However since some of the "Hitler was a Christian" comments have been occasionally directed at me, I thought it would be wise to investigate the matter for myself and see just what I could come up with.

My conclusion is that Hitler, although he was brought up and confirmed as a Catholic, had abandoned Christianity by the time he was in control of Germany. Importantly though, he was not an atheist either.

Pa upam, da ti bo ratalo kmal jasno, zakaj je v razpravah o živi in spreminjajoči se tvorbi, kot je družba, nesmiselno sklicevanje na tisto, kar družbi ne more slediti. Ker absolutno sklicevanje na dobesedno in 2000 let staro interpretacijo krščanske moralnosti ne more uspeti v današnji družbi. Razen mogoče pri nekaj skrajnežih. Kar je pa spet daleč daleč od neke realne večine.

Sami izgovori,samo upogibanje pravil.Normalen človek zna razločit med opravičljivimi razlogi.Če maš ti s tem probleme je to povsem tvoja osebna težava.

Hiearhija zapovedi menda ni brezveze.In preberi sveto pismo,ne le "preberi".Poskušaj razumet,da ne boš pri vsaki trditvi izpadel kot vol.

Many Christians believed Nazism to be a Christian movement.[1] Even in the later years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in accordance with Christian precepts.

Wikipedija

Sami izgovori,samo upogibanje pravil.Normalen človek zna razločit med opravičljivimi razlogi.Če maš ti s tem probleme je to povsem tvoja osebna težava.

Ad hominem.

Pa odgovori mi na to - kdo je normalen?

A je normalnost naravno stanje?

Je normalno tisto, kar je po pravilih religije?

Al je normalnost "zgolj" reševanje problematike vedenja in reševanja konfliktov in travm na (trenutno) družbeno zapovedan in sprejemljiv način?

Govoriš o protestantih.Tistih,ki evropskih levaki tako radi jenljejo za vzor "napredne vere".

Daj vsaj preberi celo vrstico, saj ni toliko, no:

many Protestant and Catholic clergy

Poleg tega, a protestanti niso kristjani? Dokler govorimo o temeljni etiki, bi si upal trditi, da je enaka.

Dr Evil> Sami izgovori,samo upogibanje pravil.Normalen človek zna razločit med opravičljivimi razlogi.Če maš ti s tem probleme je to povsem tvoja osebna težava.

Med 10 zapovedmi najdeš tudi tole:

But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.

Dr Evil, grešnik moj, tvoja morala je osnovana kvečjemu na nespoštovanju desetih zapovedi.

Hitler himself has declared repeatedly that he believes in the religious and moral values of a 'positive Christianity,'
...
The 'Christian religion' has, therefore, in the opinion of the Party, a very definite and recognized place in the ideology of National Socialism.

Vir

Nehajte že s takimi "argumenti",da so mnogi kristjani verjeli v nacizem.To nič ne dokaže.Veliko ateistov je to prav tako.Nehajte z kazanjem prsta na druge,ker z lahkoto lahko na sebe,na ateiste.Bitni argumenti so le tisti,ki so usmerjeni direktno na vero oziroma doktrino.

Vse to bi držalo, če ne bi ti ves čas deloval, kot da je krščanstvo apriorno dobro, moralno. Očitno ni, ne dovolj. Tako kot lahko najdeš kristjane, ki delujejo res moralno, lahko najdeš tudi ateiste ali vernike kakšne druge religije. Kot smo v tej temi ugotovili, pa ni pripadnost nobeni religiji sama po sebi dovolj. Niti budizem, niti krščanstvo, niti ateizem. Žal.

OWCA,kot prvo je govora o protestantih.

Ponavljam svoj prejšni odgovor, očitno si ga spregledal:

Poslano: 20.09.2006 11:55:49 | popravi | zmolzi | polepšaj
Pošlji zasebno sporočilo

Govoriš o protestantih.Tistih,ki evropskih levaki tako radi jenljejo za vzor "napredne vere".

Daj vsaj preberi celo vrstico, saj ni toliko, no:

many Protestant and Catholic clergy

Poleg tega, a protestanti niso kristjani? Dokler govorimo o temeljni etiki, bi si upal trditi, da je enaka.

Otroška radovednost - gonilo napredka.

---

Prosim da se vnaprej vzdržiš raznih anarholevičrskih virov,hvala

Bom čim boš ti začel svojim citatom dodajati vire.

In kaj je ta antikristjan,katerega blog si linkal,povzel?Ja tisto kar od njega pričakuješ.

Ta "antikristjan" je Director of Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists. Nazadnje ko sem pogledal, so bili kristjani. Ja, še vedno so.

No če že iščemo krivca za nacistične zločine.

Almost all non-Catholic Western nations adopted some eugenics legislation. In July 1933 Germany passed a law allowing for the involuntary sterilization of "hereditary and incurable drunkards, sexual criminals, lunatics, and those suffering from an incurable disease which would be passed on to their offspring."[20] Canada carried out thousands of forced sterilizations, and these lasted into the 1970s. Many First Nations (native Canadians) were unfairly targeted, as well as immigrants from Eastern Europe, as the program inevitably identified racial and ethnic minorities as being genetically inferior.

wiki

mercutio> A si se kdaj vprašal, zakaj današnji "ateist" ni iz ketne strgan kriminalec in kako je prišel do tega, da ve kaj je in kaj ni moralno?

Ja. Namesto papeža je poslušal Newtona. Namesto Kirkegaarda je bral Kanta.

Dr Evil> Almost all non-Catholic Western nations adopted some eugenics legislation.

Tole je pa narobe. Nemčija _je_ catholic western nation. Tudi Španija je, pa je to bil zakon do poznih sedemdesetih let.

Dr Evil> Te,da so evgeniki darvinisti in kot taki,ateisti,to pa te očitno ne zanima

Katoliki so invalidi, ampak tebe to ne zanima.

jype:
"Ja. Namesto papeža je poslušal Newtona. Namesto Kirkegaarda je bral Kanta."

Si šel premalo nazaj.

Ateisti se sami sklicujejo na evolucijo.Pojem darvinizem je sinonim za ateizem.

@Dr Evil: Če prav razumem, se tvoj svet deli na RK, ateiste in pogane?

Na vernike drugih ver si pozabil.A se ne deli tako tudi v resnici,seveda brez navlake,ki se skriva pod drugimi imeni je pa v bistvu eno od naštetih kategorij?

Is Darwinism atheism? In his influential book What Is Darwinism?, Princeton theologian Charles Hodge answers his title question: "It is atheism."

Za agnostika se smatraš?Nisi pred par posti bil šel prepričan ateist

Če je ateizem resničen in smo le rezultat naključij,potem je življenje nesmiselno.Logična izpeljava iz tega je,da živi dokler ti gre dobro in crkni pri prvem problemu.

A ni čudno,da daleč največ ljudi obupa (samomor) ravno iz nevernih družin?

Butasta delovna sobota?

LOL jype.Pojma nimaš.Kot prvo.Samomor ni nujno smrtni greh zato,ker katehiem upošteva psihično stanje človeka.Recimo,da je ekstremno depresiven.Če je naredil zato,potem ni smrtni greh.Če je storil izven tega stanja,te je.

Kot drugo.Sobota je židovski gospodov dan

Nedelja je katoliški gospodov dan,zato ker je Jezus v Nedeljo od mrtvih vstal.

Vidiš,spet si se nekaj naučil.