Prerok in karikakture (nadaljevanje)

e-boy pisal:

velik je karikatur in drugih stvari k so povezane z jezusom na netu...kok teh pa je blo kdaj objavljenih u ksnem casopisu (na tak nacin k kle)...me zanima kako bi reagirali verni katoliki in vatikan itd.. (net in uradni casopis ni isto)

Čist tak na pamet zna vsak biber govort.Sklicevat se na dejstva pa se ti očitno ne znaš,ker drugače bi se ob dejstvu o brezijanski Mariji in zažganem križu,vzdržal te neumne pogrutavščine.

Now here is the kicker. From Tehran comes word that Iran's best-selling newspaper, Hamshahri, has announced a cartoon competition. The cartoon competition will endeavor to find the best cartoon about the Holocaust. You might well ask: How did the Holocaust become entoiled in this controversy? What do six-million murdered Jews have to do with Danish cartoonists depicting a Prophet who lived 1,400 years ago? Officials at the Iranian newspaper also dragged America and Israel into their rants. Are America and Israel the real powers behind Denmark?

To tudi razloži,zakaj levičarji jemljejo musilje v bran.

Tako eni kot drugi sovražijo kapitalizem,posledično uspešno ameriko in žide.Nič novega torej.

Če sem ti pa povedal kaj se je prikazovalo

Pa kaj se tebi zdi in kaj se prizadetim zdi,sta dve različni zadevi.

Poročalo pa se je po številnih časopisih ne ,samo enem.

men se zazgan kriz ne zdi ponizevanje
...
ne zagovarjam nasilnih protestov ipd..sam takih norcevanj tud ne (ne glede iz koga)

Da pa ni vse preveč zapleteno, si življenje olajšuješ z zelo bornim znanjem? Križ je za kristjane precej ključnega pomena, glede na to, da simbolizira Jezusovo trpljenje in predvsem žrtev.

Janez D. in Janez J., sta pa jasno povedala, koliko jima je do svobode govora.

Ravno toliko, kot se za exkomunista še spodobi.

Povod za velike vojne mora biti vedno preprost: da ga razumejo čim širše ljudske mase.

A je včasih dovolj le beseda vodje. Nero je pobijal kristjane. Rimljani so mu verjeli. Hitler je pobijal Jude, Slovane, Cigane in ostalo ne-arijsko "nesnago". Nemci, Avstrijci in del skandinavcev so mu verjeli. Tudi velik del Britancev in Američanov... Miloševič je prepričal Srbe in Črno gorce... vedno isto. Preprost izgovor in ljudem vsa nabrana jeza pade na oči in se usmeri tja, kamor kaže alfa samec.

Homeini je obsodil Salman Rushdija. So vsi tisti v nebo vpijoči, smrt izrekajoči v slepi veri tudi dejansko prebrali Satanske verze?
Dvomim.

In v bolj mili obliki se z nami igrata vladi Hrvaške in Slovenije. Zakaj?

Ker jim koristi.

Če se kdorkoli sprašuje, kdo v tem primeru hoče ustvariti primerno ozračje za nekakšen spopad, je tu imho situacija nekoliko bolj zapletena. Interes za konflikt ima več kot ena stran - vlade islamskih držav se z radikalizmom uspešno branijo vpliva Zahoda (demokratizacije) in se ohranjajo na oblasti, ekstremisti pridobivajo podporo znotraj svojih ciljnih skupin in privabljajo nove člane v svoje "krožke".
Na drugi strani pa ima interes izrabljanja položaja, ki ga ustvarjajo fundamentalisti, tudi kaka zahodna interesna skupina z željo po nadzoru naravnih virov predvsem na območju "bližnjega vzhoda" ali kdo, ki si želi globalno domincijo (to velja za obe strani).
Možnosti je torej več kot dovolj.
Kdo pa si ne bi želel razvoja konflikta? Jasno, predvsem evropske demokracije, ki bi bile potisnjene v destabilizacijo (demokracije). In pa zmerni muslimani, ki bi se znašli v binarnem položaju.

Hja, zadeva gre daleč...

http://www.faithfreedom.org/comics/01.htm

Ta je dobra

-||-

The Right to Offend.

I am here to defend the right to offend.

It is my conviction that the vulnerable enterprise called democracy cannot exist without free expression, particularly in the media. Journalists must not forgo the obligation of free speech, which people in other hemispheres are denied.

I am of the opinion that it was correct to publish the cartoons of Muhammad in Jyllands Posten and it was right to re-publish them in other papers across Europe.

Let me reprise the history of this affair. The author of a children’s book on the prophet Muhammad could find no illustrators for his book. He claimed that illustrators were censoring themselves for fear of violence by Muslims who claimed no-one, anywhere, should be allowed to depict the prophet. Jyllands Posten decided to investigate this. They -- rightly – felt that such self-censorship has far-reaching consequences for democracy.

It was their duty as journalists to solicit and publish drawings of the prophet Muhammad.

Shame on those papers and TV channels who lacked the courage to show their readers the caricatures in The Cartoon Affair. These intellectuals live off free speech but they accept censorship. They hide their mediocrity of mind behind noble-sounding terms such as ‘responsibility’ and ‘sensitivity’.

Shame on those politicians who stated that publishing and re-publishing the drawings was ‘unnecessary’, ‘insensitive’, ‘disrespectful’ and ‘wrong’. I am of the opinion that Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen of Denmark acted correctly when he refused to meet with representatives of tyrannical regimes who demanded from him that he limit the powers of the press. Today we should stand by him morally and materially. He is an example to all other European leaders. I wish my prime minister had Rasmussen’s guts.

Shame on those European companies in the Middle East that advertised “we are not Danish” or “we don’t sell Danish products”. This is cowardice. Nestle chocolates will never taste the same after this, will they? The EU member states should compensate Danish companies for the damage they have suffered from boycotts.

Liberty does not come cheap. A few million Euros is worth paying for the defence of free speech. If our governments neglect to help our Scandinavian friends then I hope citizens will organise a donation campaign for Danish companies.

We have been flooded with opinions on how tasteless and tactless the cartoons are -- views emphasising that the cartoons only led to violence and discord. What good has come of the cartoons, so many wonder loudly?

Well, publication of the cartoons confirmed that there is widespread fear among authors, filmmakers, cartoonists and journalists who wish to describe, analyse or criticise intolerant aspects of Islam all over Europe.

It has also revealed the presence of a considerable minority in Europe who do not understand or will not accept the workings of liberal democracy. These people – many of whom hold European citizenship – have campaigned for censorship, for boycotts, for violence, and for new laws to ban ‘Islamophobia’.

The cartoons revealed to the public eye that there are countries willing to violate diplomatic rules for political expediency. Evil governments like Saudi Arabia stage “grassroots” movements to boycott Danish milk and yoghurt, while they would mercilessly crash a grassroots movement fighting for the right to vote.

Today I am here to defend the right to offend within the bounds of the law. You may wonder: why Berlin? And why me?

Berlin is rich in the history of ideological challenges to the open society. This is the city where a wall kept people within the boundaries of the Communist state. It was the city which focalized the battle for the hearts and minds of citizens. Defenders of the open society educated people in the shortcomings of Communism. The work of Marx was discussed in universities, in op-ed pages and in schools. Dissidents who escaped from the East could write, make films, cartoons and use their creativity to persuade those in the West that Communism was far from paradise on earth.

Despite the self-censorship of many in the West, who idealised and defended Communism, and the brutal censorship of the East, that battle was won.

Today, the open society is challenged by Islamism, ascribed to a man named Muhammad Abdullah who lived in the seventh century, and who is regarded as a prophet. Many Muslims are peaceful people; not all are fanatics. As far as I am concerned they have every right to be faithful to their convictions. But within Islam exists a hard-line Islamist movement that rejects democratic freedoms and wants to destroy them. These Islamists seek to convince other Muslims that their way of life is the best. But when opponents of Islamism try to expose the fallacies in the teachings of Muhammad then they are accused of being offensive, blasphemous, socially irresponsible – even Islamophobic or racist.

The issue is not about race, colour or heritage. It is a conflict of ideas, which transcend borders and races.

Why me? I am a dissident, like those from the Eastern side of this city who defected to the West. I too defected to the West. I was born in Somalia, and grew up in Saudi Arabic and Kenya. I used to be faithful to the guidelines laid down by the prophet Muhammad. Like the thousands demonstrating against the Danish drawings, I used to hold the view that Muhammad was perfect -- the only source of, and indeed, the criterion between good and bad. In 1989 when Khomeini called for Salman Rushdie to be killed for insulting Muhammad, I thought he was right. Now I don’t.

I think that the prophet was wrong to have placed himself and his ideas above critical thought.

I think that the prophet Muhammad was wrong to have subordinated women to men.

I think that the prophet Muhammad was wrong to have decreed that gays be murdered.

I think that the prophet Muhammad was wrong to have said that apostates must be killed.

He was wrong in saying that adulterers should be flogged and stoned, and the hands of thieves should be cut off.

He was wrong in saying that those who die in the cause of Allah will be rewarded with paradise.

He was wrong in claiming that a proper society could be built only on his ideas.

The prophet did and said good things. He encouraged charity to others. But I wish to defend the position that he was also disrespectful and insensitive to those who disagreed with him.

I think it is right to make critical drawings and films of Muhammad. It is necessary to write books on him in order to educate ordinary citizens on Muhammad.

I do not seek to offend religious sentiment, but I will not submit to tyranny. Demanding that people who do not accept Muhammad’s teachings should refrain from drawing him is not a request for respect but a demand for submission.

I am not the only dissident in Islam. There are more like me here in the West. If they have no bodyguards they work under false identities to protect themselves from harm. But there are also others who refuse to conform: in Teheran, in Doha and Riyadh, in Amman and Cairo, in Khartoum and in Mogadishu, in Lahore and in Kabul.

The dissidents of Islamism, like the dissidents of communism, don’t have nuclear bombs or any other weapons. We have no money from oil like the Saudis. We will not burn embassies and flags. We refuse to get carried away in a frenzy of collective violence. In number we are too small and too scattered to become a collective of anything. In electoral terms here in the west we are practically useless.

All we have are our thoughts; and all we ask is a fair chance to express them. Our opponents will use force to silence us. They will use manipulation; they will claim they are mortally offended. They will claim we are mentally unstable and should not be taken seriously. The defenders of Communism, too, used these methods.

Berlin is a city of optimism. Communism failed. The wall was broken down. Things may seem difficult and confusing today. But I am optimistic that the virtual wall, between lovers of liberty and those who succumb to the seduction and safety of totalitarian ideas will also, one day, come down.

Berlin, 9.02.06

Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Vir: Blog racionalne Sudanke

Vidis, to je napacno misljenje, da tisti, ki pa stvari ni objavil, je pa coward in ne podpira svobode govora.

Ja. Svoboda govora je tudi to, da ne objavis karikatur. Bi jih mar moral? :)

Lahko celo sabotiraš to svobodo govora, kot naprimer ti, BW. Ker se "delaš Francoza". Podobno kot novinarji, ki pridno pišejo, da "Mohameda ne upodabljajo niti verniki".

Kar je neresnica, kot dokazuje link, ki sem ga dal zgoraj.

Moja svoboda govora je omejena. Ne smem se izrazati z bombami. Klinc, se s hladnim orozjem se ne smem.

BW:
Po tvojem je ta "svobodna" odločitev vezana na posledice(ker so slabe, tega ne bomo objavili).
Potem ta odločitev ni več tako svobodna, ane

->Če se slike objavijo, pa Janez Novak vidi da na njih ni ničesar posebnega in se lahko le vpraša, kaj za vraga se muslimani gredo.

Tebi se ne zdijo nič posebnega in v bistvu nežaljive. Njih pa očitno to prizadane in mislim, da bi torej lahko nekateri žalitve pridržali zase. Tako, kot ni potrebno zažiganje križev in uporabljanje Marije s podgano za uvitek na CD. Skrajno neokusno vse skupaj. Seveda pa so take žalitve vseeno boljše kot cenzura, da smo si na jasnem. Take stvari se morajo objaviti in potem mora družba obsoditi taka dejanja.

> Vsak časopis ki je govoru o karikaturah bi mogu to objavt vsaj v konteksu; "za te slike se gre..."

Razen, če se boji. In bojijo se. Potem pa ta strah prikazujejo kot "obzirnost". Maloprej so pa objavili sliko papeža, kako mašuje s pirom in presto.

Ali tisto manekenko Kate Mose, kako snifa ... ali karkoli že pač.

Še dobro, da ti preprosteži ne vedo za mnoge upodobitve Mohameda v Božanski komediji od Danteja. Tam je Mohamed v peklu z razparanim trebuhom. To definitivno je žaljivo ... vendar a se bomo zato odpovedali Danteju?

IMO, ne.

Samo čakam, kdaj bodo zahtevali, da se za vsako omembo Mohamede reče "bodi mir nad njim". Da bomo dovolj spoštljivi.

> Po tvoji logiki, če se "vsi uredniki svobodno odločijo, da
> ne bodo objavljali novic v zvezi z mafijo" - zaradi tega
> svoboda govora ni nič manjša. Niti če se za to odločijo,
> da jim ne pogori bajta ali da niso ubiti.

Ne, to si ti povzel. :) Jaz sem samo rekel, da ni nic narobe s svobodo govora, ce se nekdo ne odloci napisati necesa. Karkoli ze je. Je pa narobe, ce je stvar pristranska.

Vic:

Žena natera moža pod mizo. V tistem pride sosed in pripomni: "A gospodar je pa pod mizo?"

Ta hitro pove: "Gospodar je v svoji hiši kjer on hoče bit!"



BW zastopa podobno politiko v temle primeru: "Urednik se v skladu s svobodo izražanja sme tudi podelati v hlače in ne objaviti karikatur!"

Oziroma tako, a je svoboda govora pravica ali obveza?

Torej imas pravico objaviti kar si zelis ali si obvezan objaviti vse?

Če pišeš o novoodkritih vietnamskih kozah, si navaden liml, če ne poskrbiš za sliko. Sploh, če imaš o tem ogromno za povedat.

Razen seveda, če niso koze pod šerijo, tvoje koleno pa tako narejeno, da se samo upogne, pa čeprav mu sam ukažeš, naj se ne. Če parafraziram Cankarja.

Ja ampak tako se to dela. Nevem kdo je v eni temi veselo razlagal, kako se za US cajtnege tocno ve kateri so levi in kateri desni... In to je oznacil kot dobro stvar.

->Ja ampak tako se to dela. Nevem kdo je v eni temi veselo razlagal, kako se za US cajtnege tocno ve kateri so levi in kateri desni... In to je oznacil kot dobro stvar.

A se boš ti odločil kaj hočeš?

Vam je to nekaterim všeč, ali pa ne; BW ima prav.

Pravica svobode izražanja se zato imenuje praica ker je to pravica svobodne odločitve.

Če temu ne bi bilo tako, bi se ne imenovala pravica, pač pa obveza, dolžnost (kakor vam je bolj všeč.

Tisti, ki trdite, da BW nima prav, pravzaprav na ves glas terjate diktaturo. Diktaturo po vašem okusu.

Daleč je to od demokracije in še dlje od svobode izražanja.

Da boste (nekateri bolj diktatorsko nastrojeni) lažje razumeli.

Ustavna pravica (55 člen Ustave) je, da se lahko (ženska) svobodno odloča o rojstvu svojih otrok.

Nihče ji torej nima pravice zapovedati abortosa, čeprav je to njena pravica.

Kapiš - kaj pomeni pojem pravica.

BigWhale:
> Jaz bi rekel, da je svoboda govora ravno to. Da objavis to kar si mislis, da
> je za objavo. Ne pa nekaj, kar drugi mislijo, da bi bilo treba objaviti.

In kako veš, da naši vrli uredniki res objavljajo to, kar mislijo, da je primerno?
Ali pa v resnici omenjene karikature zdajle niso primerne zato, ker drugi (vlada, predsednik, cerkev) pravijo, da niso za objavo?

Kaj naj človek pričakuje od medijev? Da bodo servirali samo prijazne članke, komentarje in oddaje, v katerih novinarji pazijo, da ne bi koga užalili, obenem pa hvalijo poteze oblasti in cerkve. Bognedaj, da bi kdo rekel kakšno čez državo, boga in cesarja.

In ko pride karikaturist, prinese eno hudo karikaturo, se urednik nasmeji, pol pa pravi: "lej stari, men je tole všeč, ampak veš kako je, so taki časi, da je treba pazit, da ne bo kdo užaljen; bom tole faksiral politkomisarju, pol pa še v župnišče, če nimajo kaj proti; moramo mal pazit na svobodo govora, zadnje čase jo preveč zlorabljajo."

Če pristaneš na to, da je nekaj tako 'svetega' in tako 'nedotakljivega', da se o tem niti karikature ne sme objaviti, potem to ni svoboda govora.