Volvovi težki električni kamioni že prihodnje leto

Poleg tega se pri dizlarjih pozimi kabina greje z "odpadno" energijo, pri elektro bo treba trošit baterijo.

Če bi si vzel malo časa bi lahko še naprej nizal neprijetna dejstva. Pa niti nima smisla, ker vernikov itak nič ne prepriča. Ampak takšna je realnost.

3% je morda celokupno, ampak ko pogledaš recimo nemčijo čez normalen letni dan, je ta številka veliko višja. in takrat pridejo problemi ko neha svetiti sonce in neha pihat; v zadnjih parih mesecij je bila evropa 2× pred razpadom mreže.
če bodo lahko vsi preostali agregati pokrivali povečano povpraševanje ponoči zaradi elektro prometa in elektro gretja (toplotne črpalke) pa bomo še videli.

da se ekofašisti (erik in podobni) polovico zlažejo ni nobena skrivnost...

Valvoline je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:04 izjavil:

Muhahaha, webasto halooo!
Kolk pa stroma bo potrebnih za ogrevanje/hlajenje 1500kwh+ battery packa, to bo sele zanimiv podatek.

Pred parimi leti sem zasledil podatek da ima menjalniška zavora sposobnost zavirati z močjo 500 kW kar je že precej konkretna številka, je pa res da je to verjetno merjeno pri 90 km/h.

dizelski tovornjaki morajo laufati celo noč na parkirišču in potrošijo na noč po 30 litrov goriva samo zato da je v kabini toplo.

Par postov zgoraj je Erik govoril o porabi električnih avtov, ravno včeraj sem bral tale test:

https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/f...

After a 72-mile journey around southern Germany the car had recorded 20.6kWh per 100km, which is just over 3 miles per kWh in British money.



torej 20.6 kWh na 100 km, če vzamem svojo položnico za ta mesec me povprečni kWh stane 0,13EUR kar bi zneslo 2.678EUR/100km če pa rečemo da polnim samo ponoči pa (govorim na pamet nisem računal) 0,10EUR/kWh torej 2,06EUR. Če vzamemo klasično X3 bo imela z 2,0 dizlom porabo okrog 6 litrov, torej je elektika približno 3 krat cenejša. Erik seveda zna povedati da podjetja dobijo povrnjeno trošarino kar pomeni da je prihranek še manjši. Pri tem je povsem nepomembno koliko energije dejansko porabimo, pomembna je končna cena. Tovornjak - vlačilec večino časa preživi na avtocesti kjer vozi konstantnih 90 km/h in je temu prilagojen tako da je motor ves čas v območju največje učinkovitosti. Tega pa ne moremo trditi za električni tovornjak z eno prestavo (je pa res da ima elektromotor bolj konstanten izkoristek).

Erik seveda zna povedati da podjetja dobijo povrnjeno trošarino kar pomeni da je prihranek še manjši.

feryz je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:16 izjavil:

Webasto je kar lepo v praksi. Škrtice, ki jim je škoda dati za webasto (ali celo toplotno črpalko), zagotovo ne bodo pred vrati stali za nakup tvojega Semi truck-a.

Valvoline je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:11 izjavil:

Ce bo tovornjak pocival v klimatizirani garazi ja. Grem pa stavit da ko bo zunaj pod 0c da bo najmanj 1/3 razpolozljivega stroma slo za samo ogrevanje baterij. Pa smo pri 2000kwh ze.

Valvoline je 9. nov 2020 ob 10:44 izjavil:

V tvojih pravljicah in izmisljenih neumnih stevilkah. V resnici pa 1500kwh (320l,45% izkoristek) x20c (slovenija) = 300e, x30c+ (nemcija) = 450e. Dizel wins.
Btw elektricni motor tudi ni 100% ucinkovit, tak da zgornjim 1500kwh komot dodas se +10% izgub e. motorja/napeljave. Se pravi 1700kw ze.

Wtf!? Nekorona čas!? Štrom računaš pa danes. Tudi za štrom pride nekorona.

Tudi štrom se trenutno šlepa na račun nizkih cen fosilnih goriv.

So ti že povedali. Par tednov nazaj so Nemci fehtali štrom po celi Evropi. Nazadnje so ga plačali po 350 evrov za megavatno uro.

D3m je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:15 izjavil:

dizelski tovornjaki morajo laufati celo noč na parkirišču in potrošijo na noč po 30 litrov goriva samo zato da je v kabini toplo.

A si ti bil kdaj na parkirišču?

Saj si fajn za brat, ampak res bi bilo treba malo realnosti vnesti v pisanje. Vsaj za naslednjih 10 let. Potem bomo pa videli, kaj in kako.
Ne da se mi nazaj brati in iskati, kakšen grozljivo visok procent novih avtov bo EV v letu 2020. In kako grozljivo nizek je.

D3m je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:15 izjavil:

dizelski tovornjaki morajo laufati celo noč na parkirišču in potrošijo na noč po 30 litrov goriva samo zato da je v kabini toplo.

A si ti bil kdaj na parkirišču?

Erik39 je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:24 izjavil:

Par postov zgoraj je Erik govoril o porabi električnih avtov, ravno včeraj sem bral tale test:

https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/f...

After a 72-mile journey around southern Germany the car had recorded 20.6kWh per 100km, which is just over 3 miles per kWh in British money.



torej 20.6 kWh na 100 km, če vzamem svojo položnico za ta mesec me povprečni kWh stane 0,13EUR kar bi zneslo 2.678EUR/100km če pa rečemo da polnim samo ponoči pa (govorim na pamet nisem računal) 0,10EUR/kWh torej 2,06EUR. Če vzamemo klasično X3 bo imela z 2,0 dizlom porabo okrog 6 litrov, torej je elektika približno 3 krat cenejša. Erik seveda zna povedati da podjetja dobijo povrnjeno trošarino kar pomeni da je prihranek še manjši. Pri tem je povsem nepomembno koliko energije dejansko porabimo, pomembna je končna cena. Tovornjak - vlačilec večino časa preživi na avtocesti kjer vozi konstantnih 90 km/h in je temu prilagojen tako da je motor ves čas v območju največje učinkovitosti. Tega pa ne moremo trditi za električni tovornjak z eno prestavo (je pa res da ima elektromotor bolj konstanten izkoristek).

Okej pojdiva lepo po vrsti. Dal si primer nekega nestrokovno izvedenega testa za BMW iX3. BMW iX3 je slabo narejen avtomobil, ki nima tako velikega izkoristka kot Tesla. Se vidi da nisi pri Gen-i, tvoj ponudnik električne enegije je kar nekaj dražji od Gen-i. Pri gen-i bi imel ceno na kWh enako 0,115 (ne 0,13, malo je razlike), ceno nočne tarife pa bi imel 0,08 EUR (ne 0,1 EUR kot imaš, spet nekaj razlike). Če bi ga polnil ponoči (kar je v praksi tako), bi ga lahko polnil za 1,65 EUR (ne 2,06 EUR tako kot pri zdajšnjem dražjem ponudniku.). Ampak to je ta model avtomobila. Če vzameš Teslo model 3, imaš porabo 15 kWh na 100 km, to je realna poraba realnih uporabnikov iz EV database. Takšno teslo bi vozil po ceni 1,2 EUR na 100 km (15 kWh x 0,08=1,2 EUR). Če se vrneva na BMW iX3 nazaj:

IX3 ekvivalent dizel: 6 litrov x 1,3 EUR = 7,8 EUR na 100 km
IX3 električni: 20,6kWh x 0,08= 1,65 EUR

Razlika je skoraj 5 kratna. (7,8/1,65).

Če vzamemo za primer varčnejšo Teslo pa dobimo:

IX3 ekvivalent dizel: 6 litrov x 1,3 EUR = 7,8 EUR na 100 km
Tesla: 15 kWh x 0,08 =1,2 EUR

Vir za porabo iz EV database:

https://ev-database.org/car/1320/Tesla-...
https://ev-database.org/car/1321/Tesla-...


Razlika med dizelskim avtom in Teslo je 6,5 kratna. Pa malo sicer dvomim da ima dizel samo 6 litrov povprečne porabe (ker imaš tudi porabo v mestih ki je po 8 litrov ipd.), ampak ok, smo upoštevali 6 l.

Erik seveda zna povedati da podjetja dobijo povrnjeno trošarino kar pomeni da je prihranek še manjši.

Prihranek je pri električnem tovornjaki 4,5 kratni, ker so zadeve energijsko bolj zoptimizirane v primerjavi z avtomobili, TER Teslin električni tovornjak je veliko bolj aerodinamičen od ostalih dizelskih tovornjakov. Torej dizel avto vs tesla sta oba podobno aerodinamična. Teslin električni tovornjak vs dizel tovornjak je električni tvornjak 2x bolj aerodinamičen. Vidiš sedaj razliko? Plus to da je učinkovitost električnega motroja kot takega 95 %.

feryz je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:16 izjavil:

Webasto je kar lepo v praksi. Škrtice, ki jim je škoda dati za webasto (ali celo toplotno črpalko), zagotovo ne bodo pred vrati stali za nakup tvojega Semi truck-a.

Okej, that is fair argument. Ti dam prav tukaj v tem primeru. :)

Valvoline je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:11 izjavil:

Ce bo tovornjak pocival v klimatizirani garazi ja. Grem pa stavit da ko bo zunaj pod 0c da bo najmanj 1/3 razpolozljivega stroma slo za samo ogrevanje baterij. Pa smo pri 2000kwh ze.

500 kWh za ogrevanje preko noči?! Kaj ti misliš da mora biti v kabini 1000 stopinj da ven dobiš zažganega ODOJKA? Hahhahahah lol A ti sploh veš koliko je 500 kWh preko noči? To je moč 63 kW, tvoja PEČICA doma ima 3 kW samo! Takoj ko bi aplyal 63 kW ogrevanje v kabino tovornjaka, bi v roku četr ure ven dobil zoglenelo truplo. :D NE! Ni tako. Poraba 10 kWh, kar je približno en procent baterije bi bla zunaj pri 0 stopinj celzija. Poglej koliko porabijo električni avtomobili z toplotno črpalko morda 6 kWh preko noči, dajmo pri tovornjaku ker ima malenkost večjo kabino od avta rečt 10 kWh preko noči, kar je cca 1 % baterije. A znaš sam najdt koliko porabi ogrevanje električnega avtomobila medtem ko stoji al ti jaz najdem?

Erik39 je 9. nov 2020 ob 13:31 izjavil:

Jaz sem ti napisal za ogrevanje baterij, ne kabine. Kolk bi bila toplotna izguba za vzdrzevanje primerne temperature 3+ tonskega (bolj realno 5 tonskega) battery packa npr na zunajnih -20c?

Ne veliko, ker battery pack je izoliran. Za vzdrževanje rabiš morda 1 kW toplotne črpale, kar ti da 4 kW toplote. 1 kW v 10 urah je 10 kWh, kar je cca 1 % celotne baterije. Za ogret 3 tone baterij iz -20 na rabiš 3 kWh z toplotno črpalko. Ni ravno veliko. Plus to da ko iz baterij vlečeš tok, gre tisti procent izgub pri učinkovitosti baterije v toploto, kar ogreva baterijo, tako da je še manj kot 3 kWh za ogreti zadevo. Za vzdreževati temperaturo pa 1 kW s toplotno črpalko.

Raptor F16 je 9. nov 2020 ob 13:07 izjavil:

D3m je 9. nov 2020 ob 11:15 izjavil:

dizelski tovornjaki morajo laufati celo noč na parkirišču in potrošijo na noč po 30 litrov goriva samo zato da je v kabini toplo.

A si ti bil kdaj na parkirišču?

Tip še ni slišal za Webasto grelec. Tisto praktično nič nafte ne požre (cca 2 deci nafte na uro), je pa za namen ogrevanja zagotovljen visok izkoristek ker nimaš še 100 nepotrebnih pretvorb zraven. Največja neumnost je električni grelec. Dobro toplotna črpaka v prehodnih obdobjih pomladi in jeseni še gre, čez zimo je pa isti fail kot električni grelec, ker COP pade praktično na 1.

Da. Podatek je iz prve roke znanca ki poklicno vozi tovornjak. Sicer nekateri imajo sicer webasto in podobne rešitve, ne pa vsi. Pri električnem čez noč za ogrevanje porabiš okoli 10 kWh, kar je cca 1 % baterije, kar je cca slab evro za ogrevanje(0,8 EUR) čez celo noč. Celo webasto porabi precej več kot 1 EUR za ogrevnje preko noči.

Največja neumnost je električni grelec.

Dobro toplotna črpaka v prehodnih obdobjih pomladi in jeseni še gre, čez zimo je pa isti fail kot električni grelec, ker COP pade praktično na 1.

Erik39 je 9. nov 2020 ob 21:55 izjavil:

Še o tem kako nekateri tovornjaki pustijo motor prižgan celo noč zato da jih ne zebe ko spijo, kar prej nekateri uporabniki niso verjeli. 24 dolarjev porabijo vsako noč za ogrevanje tovornjaka, medtem ko pri električnem ne porabiš niti 1 dolar elektike ne.

Why Do Truck Drivers Leave Their Trucks Idling So Much?

https://www.bigrighq.com/why-do-truck-d...

If you've ever driven around a truck stop before at night, you most likely saw long rows of semi-trucks parked for the night. If your window was down or you walked inside the truck stop, you probably also noticed a low hum of engines running. If so, you probably asked yourself why a trucker leave their engines running throughout the night? Logic would say that there must be a significant amount of money being wasted by burning fuel while the truck is parked. In the article below, we will answer these questions and several others that you likely have had at some point.
Fuel Consumption During Idle

According to a study by the Alternative Fuel Data Center (AFDC), an idling semi-truck uses approximately .8 gallons of diesel for every hour that it sits idling. With gas prices hovering around $3 per gallon for diesel fuel at the time of this writing, that would equate to about 6.5 gallons of diesel fuel being burned during an 8-hour period of idling. Cost wise, that comes out to about $24 for that same period of idling.

Amazingly, some of the newer models of trucks are extremely fuel efficient. It's hard to imagine that a 400-horsepower engine can ever be described as fuel efficient, but they can perform better than some small cars.
Why Do it?

If letting a semi-truck sit and idle is costing the driving about $3 an hour, why would they do it? Why not just turn the truck off, especially if they are just sleeping? There's several reasons that truckers do this.

The primary reason that truckers leaving their trucks idling during the night is to regulate the temperature inside their truck while they are sleeping. Many times, the insulation of the cab is good enough that drivers can sleep comfortably in the cab of their truck. However, when outside temperatures are extremely hot or cold, it will easily impact the temps inside the cab. The only option available to drivers to help control the temps to sleep comfortably is the keep their truck running.

Another primary reason that truckers keep their trucks idling at night is to prevent the battery from dying. Most trucks have small motors dedicated to running small electronics in the cab of the truck. However, the power produced from these small motors is limited. If a driver has a TV or small cooking appliance they need to power up, they will be forced to keep the truck running to ensure the alternator keeps the battery charged for longer periods of times.

Interestingly, many drivers have also mentioned they keep their truck running for the same reason many people sleep with a sound machine. The slow hum and light vibration of the idling truck works like white noise and helps reduce the noises from the truck stop or passing cars and trucks if they are parked on the side of the road. Trucks are always on the move. Many drivers plan their trips to leave out well before sunrise to get a jump on traffic or to make a delivery. Trying to sleep in your cab with the surrounding trucks starting and leaving can make it very difficult to get a good night's sleep.
Engine Care

It's easy to assume all motors are the same and the motors in our cars are the same as any other motor that you might find in a lawn mower or semi-truck except for its obvious size. This is a common misconception. Diesel engines are significantly different that regular gasoline engines.

Many truckers leave their trucks running to keep their engines warm. Diesel trucks need a period of time to warm up before they head out on the road pulling several tons of cargo down the interstate at 60+ MPH. Therefore, many truckers will keep the trucks running to keep them warm and to keep oil and coolant circulating the motor.

Extremely cold temperatures can create havoc on a truck running diesel. In fact, diesel fuel will thicken as it gets cold. Sometimes, it gets so thick that it can't flow properly thru the fuel lines and fuel pump. Once it reaches this point, the truck becomes extremely difficult to start. Keeping the engine running will keep it just warm enough that the fuel isn't able to freeze up.

ice cold weatherA common response you will get from truckers if you ask why they keep their trucks idling is the fact they want to ensure it will start when they are ready to leave. Getting basic mechanic work on a truck, even just getting a jump for a dead battery, can be quite pricey. In fact, a simple jump start can easily cost $100. That doesn't include the amount of time spent waiting for the mechanic to show up. The driver could easily spend hours waiting for help to arrive. This waiting is costing him money because the wheels aren't turning.

Lastly, another reason truckers keep their trucks running is simply because they aren't paying for the fuel. Most drivers that you see on the road aren't driving their own trucks. They work for a transportation company that maintains the trucks and pays the expenses. The driver's job is to get the cargo from destination A to B by a preset deadline. Therefore, truckers aren't inclined to turn off their engines because they aren't paying the $24 a night in fuel that is getting burned.

In my experience, owner operators are much more hesitant to keep their trucks idling for long periods of time. Owner operators (O/O's) are drivers who own their truck. Their truck is their business. They are responsible for all expenses, repairs, and any other problems that arise. Since the fuel is expense is coming out of their pocket, they tend to only idle when necessary (running electronics in the cab, extreme temperatures).

Raptor F16 je 10. nov 2020 ob 08:12 izjavil:

Erik39 je 9. nov 2020 ob 21:55 izjavil:

Še o tem kako nekateri tovornjaki pustijo motor prižgan celo noč zato da jih ne zebe ko spijo, kar prej nekateri uporabniki niso verjeli. 24 dolarjev porabijo vsako noč za ogrevanje tovornjaka, medtem ko pri električnem ne porabiš niti 1 dolar elektike ne.

Why Do Truck Drivers Leave Their Trucks Idling So Much?

https://www.bigrighq.com/why-do-truck-d...

If you've ever driven around a truck stop before at night, you most likely saw long rows of semi-trucks parked for the night. If your window was down or you walked inside the truck stop, you probably also noticed a low hum of engines running. If so, you probably asked yourself why a trucker leave their engines running throughout the night? Logic would say that there must be a significant amount of money being wasted by burning fuel while the truck is parked. In the article below, we will answer these questions and several others that you likely have had at some point.
Fuel Consumption During Idle

According to a study by the Alternative Fuel Data Center (AFDC), an idling semi-truck uses approximately .8 gallons of diesel for every hour that it sits idling. With gas prices hovering around $3 per gallon for diesel fuel at the time of this writing, that would equate to about 6.5 gallons of diesel fuel being burned during an 8-hour period of idling. Cost wise, that comes out to about $24 for that same period of idling.

Amazingly, some of the newer models of trucks are extremely fuel efficient. It's hard to imagine that a 400-horsepower engine can ever be described as fuel efficient, but they can perform better than some small cars.
Why Do it?

If letting a semi-truck sit and idle is costing the driving about $3 an hour, why would they do it? Why not just turn the truck off, especially if they are just sleeping? There's several reasons that truckers do this.

The primary reason that truckers leaving their trucks idling during the night is to regulate the temperature inside their truck while they are sleeping. Many times, the insulation of the cab is good enough that drivers can sleep comfortably in the cab of their truck. However, when outside temperatures are extremely hot or cold, it will easily impact the temps inside the cab. The only option available to drivers to help control the temps to sleep comfortably is the keep their truck running.

Another primary reason that truckers keep their trucks idling at night is to prevent the battery from dying. Most trucks have small motors dedicated to running small electronics in the cab of the truck. However, the power produced from these small motors is limited. If a driver has a TV or small cooking appliance they need to power up, they will be forced to keep the truck running to ensure the alternator keeps the battery charged for longer periods of times.

Interestingly, many drivers have also mentioned they keep their truck running for the same reason many people sleep with a sound machine. The slow hum and light vibration of the idling truck works like white noise and helps reduce the noises from the truck stop or passing cars and trucks if they are parked on the side of the road. Trucks are always on the move. Many drivers plan their trips to leave out well before sunrise to get a jump on traffic or to make a delivery. Trying to sleep in your cab with the surrounding trucks starting and leaving can make it very difficult to get a good night's sleep.
Engine Care

It's easy to assume all motors are the same and the motors in our cars are the same as any other motor that you might find in a lawn mower or semi-truck except for its obvious size. This is a common misconception. Diesel engines are significantly different that regular gasoline engines.

Many truckers leave their trucks running to keep their engines warm. Diesel trucks need a period of time to warm up before they head out on the road pulling several tons of cargo down the interstate at 60+ MPH. Therefore, many truckers will keep the trucks running to keep them warm and to keep oil and coolant circulating the motor.

Extremely cold temperatures can create havoc on a truck running diesel. In fact, diesel fuel will thicken as it gets cold. Sometimes, it gets so thick that it can't flow properly thru the fuel lines and fuel pump. Once it reaches this point, the truck becomes extremely difficult to start. Keeping the engine running will keep it just warm enough that the fuel isn't able to freeze up.

ice cold weatherA common response you will get from truckers if you ask why they keep their trucks idling is the fact they want to ensure it will start when they are ready to leave. Getting basic mechanic work on a truck, even just getting a jump for a dead battery, can be quite pricey. In fact, a simple jump start can easily cost $100. That doesn't include the amount of time spent waiting for the mechanic to show up. The driver could easily spend hours waiting for help to arrive. This waiting is costing him money because the wheels aren't turning.

Lastly, another reason truckers keep their trucks running is simply because they aren't paying for the fuel. Most drivers that you see on the road aren't driving their own trucks. They work for a transportation company that maintains the trucks and pays the expenses. The driver's job is to get the cargo from destination A to B by a preset deadline. Therefore, truckers aren't inclined to turn off their engines because they aren't paying the $24 a night in fuel that is getting burned.

In my experience, owner operators are much more hesitant to keep their trucks idling for long periods of time. Owner operators (O/O's) are drivers who own their truck. Their truck is their business. They are responsible for all expenses, repairs, and any other problems that arise. Since the fuel is expense is coming out of their pocket, they tend to only idle when necessary (running electronics in the cab, extreme temperatures).

Ta članek je navadna neumnost. Pustiti vozilo v prostem teku je zakonsko prepovedano.

I will call bullshit on that...

Beli šum da lažje zaspijo... ja seveda :)))

Zadnje kar bi človek rad poslušal med spanjem je "Kle Kle Kle Kle Kle Kle..."

najprej nismo vedeli kako delujejo toplotne črpalke.

Dobro toplotna črpaka v prehodnih obdobjih pomladi in jeseni še gre, čez zimo je pa isti fail kot električni grelec, ker COP pade praktično na 1.

Raptor F16 je 10. nov 2020 ob 12:37 izjavil:

Erik39 je 10. nov 2020 ob 12:18 izjavil:

< Povprečni zimski cop je od 3 do 5 odvisno od vrste toplotne črpalke (zrak-voda, zemlja-voda, voda(podtalnica)-voda ipd.)

Dokaz da se raptor ne spozna na delovanje toplotnih črpalk in je napisal blesarijo:

Ja po TEORIJI sem napisal blesarijo, je nekoliko večji od ena, vendar konkretno je stvar praktično useless, ker se en kup toplote izgubi pri samem prenosu.

Zdaj mi pa še povej, kje si ti na vozilih videl toplotni izmenjevalc v stiku s podtalnico ali zemljo ?