[fork] Krščanstvo je v bistvu poganska vera

Priporočam da si pogledate BBCjevo serijo History of Christianity

P.S
zanimivo..
http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/aslaksen/tea...

antonija...

in zato ker so postavili praznovanje božiča na 25. december je zate že plagiat??

glede Hora

At this time, he was the god of the sky, and Ra was the god of the sun. Perhaps inevitable, since he was the sky, eventually the moon and the sun were considered his eyes. At this point he was known as Heru-khuti, and by-and-by he was combined with Ra as the god "Re-Horakhty"[13][11]. While there was a battle between Set and Horus, it was hardly every night. In fact, the battle really only happened once, and had more to do with testicles and semen than night and day[14].

In fact day and night in Egyptian Mythology was much more complicated than the film suggests. The goddess of the sky was called Nut (or Nuit), her name also means "night". At dusk she would swallow Ra, the son god, and he would stay in her uterus until morning when he would be reborn. She wore a blue dress that was covered in stars[15]. Set was the God of the desert, primarily because Horus cut off one of his testicles and he became "infertile like the desert". At this time, Set was not considered evil, it was not until around 100 A.D. that the Romans in Egypt turned Set into a demonic figure[16].

Horus was not born on December 25th, he was born on the 5th day of the "Epagomenal Days"[3], which does not even take place in December on the modern or ancient calendars, but rather between August 24th and 28th, but in terms of the rising of Sirius (August 4), they are July 30th through August 3rd[4]. His mother was also not a virgin. Horus's father was Osiris, who was killed by his brother Seth. Isis used a spell to bring him back to life for a short time so they could have sex, in which they conceived Horus[5].

I, as well as several others, as well as several Egyptologists you can find on the Internet, know of no reference anywhere to a "star in the east" or "three kings" and "new-born savior"; it is simply made up. I cannot find any source or information proving he was a "teacher when he was 12 years old", that he was "baptized at age 30", that he "walked on water" (but on the Internet, I did find several places that suggest he was "thrown in the water", but I have no direct source at this time for that). More so, I cannot find any evidence he was referred to as "The Truth", "The Light", Lamb of God", "the Good Shepherd", etc.

Also lacking is any evidence that he was betrayed by Typhon. In fact, Horus never died, at any time, he later merges with the sun god, Ra -- but never dies and certainly never is crucified, and therefore could not have been buried for 3 days and resurrected. If you want to look it up yourself, you can find documentation of Horus and Isis and Osiris here [6] and here [7].

Zeitgeist, the movie did not make this up originally, you can find several places on the Internet that make such claims, but there are no sources or suggestions as to where this information came from. It is highly possible all this originates from The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold - If you read the Amazon reviews, you can find that a lot of people who point out how the information is completely unsourced [8]. I went to Barnes and Nobel and actually found this book in the Christianity section. Needless to say it was completely unsourced and was like reading much the other "Christianity Conspiracy" books out there. So, if these claims all originate from this book, there's absolutely no evidence for it [9]. I should note that this book is used as a "source" in Zeitgeist, the movie [10]. And it is worth pointing out the title is only one word away from the title of this part of the movie "The Greatest Story Ever Sold" vs "The Greatest Story Ever Told".

Horus did not have 12 disciples, rather he had four semi-divine disciples called "heru-shemsu" (followers of Horus) [11 - 1.491]. He did have 16 human followers [11 - 1.196]. One can also find reference to an unnumbered group of followers called the Mesniu (blacksmiths) who accompanied Horus into some of his battles, but no where can 12 of anything be found [11 - 1.475f].

These attributes of Horus, whether original or not, seem to permeate in many cultures of the world, for many other gods are found to have the same general mythological structure.

Well, as read above, these attributes really are not original. It seems kind of obvious to say that such myths would permeate many cultures of the world -- generally because the claims made by the film, such as a sun god, good and evil, and so forth are things most cultures have believed in.


Kakšne božanske pomagače pa ima krščanski bog? kolikor vem so vsi navadni ljudje

Nisem veren

I, as well as several others, as well as several Egyptologists you can find on the Internet

Kaj pa egiptologi ki jih ne najdes na internetu, ampak poucujejo na univerzah in objavljajo clanke v peer-reviewed revije?

In se citat iz wikipedie (in sklepam da ga bos nasel v knjigah ki so jih napisali egiptologi, ampak ne tisti iz interneta):

Different forms of Horus are recorded in history and these are treated as distinct gods by Egyptologists.

Na (tvojo) zalost je dovolj da se ena od zgodbic o Horusu ujema z jezusovo, ker potem je takoj jasno da gre za copy/paste. Tudi ce se ena sama celotna ne ujema in se iskaze da je jezus kombinacija vec zgodbic o Horusu (vzames najbolj zanimive dele, dolgas pa zavrzes) je to se vedno (tvoja) zalost.

Kakšne božanske pomagače pa ima krščanski bog? kolikor vem so vsi navadni ljudje

Jup, nic "nadcloveskega" ni pri njih.

Drugac bi pa clovek sklepam da se bo oseba ki ne veruje (kot baje ti ne verujes) odlocala na podlagi argumentov in dokazov. Ti si di zdej za vse argumente odgovoril samo "ne", kar vsi vemo kaj pomeni. Hkrati pa sam nisi podal _enega_samega_ protiargumenta s katerimi bi vsaj malo razrahljal trditve o vec-kot-nakljucnih podobnostih med krscansko vero in verami, ki so obstajale vec tisoc let pred jezusom in to na razlicnih koncih sveta.

Sem povedal zakaj so določene podobnosti, samo ti greš lepo mimo tega. Kot vsi "teoretiki zarot"

Ja, samo ti si argumentiral na nacin za katerega nimas nobenega dokaza. Privzel si namrec da je krscanbsk verzija pravilna in da so samo pobral datume iz poganskih verovanj, drugega pa ne. Pozabil si pa zdraven povedat da so poleg datumov pobrali se vso simboliko, obrede in se marsikaj drugega. Tako da ce res hoces bit picajzlast bi moral napisat da:
"...je vecina podrobnosti, med katerimi je tudi datum, vzeta iz poganskih verovanj, da bi ljudem omogocili lazji prehod..."

Če se katera od Horovih zgodbic ujema z jezusovo... povej katera. link? ali pa knjiga?

take your pick
Ce "se ti pa ne da brat vseh linkov" pol pa to cimprej povej, da lahko zakljucimo debato in te pustimo v (neargumentiranem) prepricanju.

EDIT: Evo se en search string za bolj splosne argumente.

i386

The Romans, when conquering, would take the people's gods, thinking to undermine their power. Many graven images were brought back to Rome, and, later, into the church. For example, the statue of St. Peter in St. Peter's Basilica, was, once, Jupiter (sun-god).

The golden child in the Vatican treasury, is reminiscent of the ancient worship of Tammuz. Born on December 25th, he represents the rebirth of the sun. He was called, "Baal-berith," or lord of the fir-tree. The word "yule" is a Babylonian word for infant. Both Egyptians and Persians, celebrated the birthday of their god on December 25th. Other names applied to the sun-god are Mithras, Horus, Isvara, Deoius, Jupiter, Rah, Plutus, Ninus, Osiris, Dionysus, Bacchus, Iacchus, Adonis, Attis, etc.

The placing of Mary in a crescent is a remnant of the fertility cults of the ancient mother-goddess, traceable to the Babylonian queen, Semiramis, titled, "Mother of God," and "Queen of Heaven."

The pagans placed a circle or aureole around the heads of their gods, which continued in the art of the church. (Even, Buddha, had this circular symbol around his head.) The disk was used to represent any being as a god or goddess. Thousands of pictures of Mary and the saints have this same symbolism.

As paganism and Christianity blended, at times, a saint was given a similar sounding name to that of a god or goddess. The goddess Victoria, was renamed, St. Victoire, Cheron as St. Ceranos, Artemis as St. Astemidos, Dionysus as St. Dionysus, etc. The goddess Brighit (daughter of the sun-god with a child in her arms), was renamed St. Bridgit. In pagan days, her chief temple was at Kildare and was served by Vestal Virgins, who tended the sacred fires. Later, her temple became a convent and her Vestal Virgins, nuns. Now, it is called, "St. Bridget's fire." - Babylon Mystery Religion, by Ralph Woodrow.

Originally, the obelisk was associated with sun-worship, a symbol of "Baal," (which was a title of Nimrod), because it pointed toward heaven. It, also, had a sexual significance - the phallus, as with the sun, is a symbol of life. The same obelisk (the ancient symbol of Osiris, the solar phallic god) that stood in Egypt is, now, in the entrance to St. Peter's.

The largest occult solar wheel on earth is the court of St. Peter at the Vatican in Rome - a wheel within a wheel, with eight spokes, a common symbol of cosmic energy in paganism.

The Pope's mitre (hat) comes from sun-worship, as seen in pictures of Dagon and Oannes, the Babylonian fish-god and Vishnu, Hindu fish-god.

There is so much more...Constantine had a vision of the cross of Mithra (sun-god) and heard a voice, saying, "In this sign, conquer..." Though pagan Rome was corrupt and oppressive, Jesus never rallied an army to overthrow the Empire. He taught us to wage a different kind of warfare - spiritual warfare for the souls of men. Constantine, a christian? He had his wife and eldest son murdered. He was a sun-worshipper. In 321 A.D., he established the first Sunday law, in order to unite the pagans and the Christians in the empire. In 364 A.D., at the Council of Laodicea, the Sabbath was, officially, "changed" to Sunday (called, "The Lord's Day," in sun-worship). The "Little Horn" (Antichrist) who was to arise out of the Roman Empire "thinks to change times and law." - Dan 7:25.

Aja, pa Hor ni bog sonca, ampak je to Ra wiki

Vsi so bogovi sonca :)
Ko je človek prišel iz jame in začel obdelovat polje, je častil sonce kot boga, ker mu je dal pridelek in življenje. Ostale vremenske pojave pa tudi podobno... pa zvezde...
Naprej so se pač razvile take in drugačne zgodbice, pol pa še politika...

PB... to da je poganski simbol? hahahaha, potem je srp pa kladivo simbol kapitalizma?

abarum (?) (latinsko labarum - prapor) je bil vojaški standard za prapor, ki ga je izdelal rimski cesar Konstantin I. Veliki (vladal 306-337), in so ga nosili pred njegovo vojsko. Prikazoval je prvi dve grški črki za grško ime Kristusa - hi (?) in ro (?).

To so dve črki ne pa simbol sonca

Na tisteli sliki so črke, ni to simbol sonca ampak so to 2 črke skup. hi in ro.. sem ti napisal! Ni zdaj vsak okrogel simbol simbol sonca.

:)

The only difference between "Labarum" and the symbol of the Gaulish sun-god was that upper spoke was looped to form the letter P.

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8...

Podrobnosti?

Joj, si ti naiven. Če imas celotno simboliko krščanstva povezano s poganskimi religijami, ti mi pa govoris o pdorobnostih. Preveč goreč vernik si pa ti to že um megli..koncujem debato s tabo, ker nima smisla.

Zakaj pa so podobnosti? A si niso znali kaj svojega izmislit?

Seveda... vse je to eno in isto nategovanje... Škoda, ko se kaj novega, bolj zanimivega ne izmislijo.

tole mora bit troll... ne more bit clovek (ki trdi da ni vernik) tako tup in samovsecen ter preprican da ima edini v mnozici prav (ceprav verjetnost obstaja, ampak je majhna...).

antonija... Ovržem tvoje trditve in ti me že označiš za trola. na luni niso nikoli bili, WTC so zrušili amerikanci, ne?

PB.. kopje in raketa sta tudi podobne oblike, sem že napisal, pa kup skal na marsu je tudi podoben človekovemu obrazu pa zato človeški obraz ni kopija tistega kupa skal :)
Ne vem zakaj tako povdarjaš, da je bil jezus bog sonca in ga povezuješ z babilonskim bogovom ribe. Kje je tukaj povezava ne vem.

Če ti je podobnost med raketo in sulico smešna bi ti morale biti smešne tudi tvoje trditve.
Kaj mi bo tist tvoj link? Piše malo, linki ne delajo ali so pa u italjanščni.

Glede prve slike... ni naravno da mati pestuje dojenčka?
Vse kar je okroglo še ne pomeni, da predstavlja sonce
Tista zvezda pa vzorec na škrlatni podlagi sta si pa tako podobna kot tist moj primer med sulico in raketo

CB.. zakaj pa ne recimo oko? ali pa luno? lukno? luč? marsikaj je lahko okroglo, veš?

ne, samo predstavil sem ti, da obstajajo tudi druge okrogle oči... povej, zakaj pa ne bi smel predstavljati očesa? meni se zdi čisto logično

Če ti je podobnost med raketo in sulico smešna bi ti morale biti smešne tudi tvoje trditve.

Nikakor ne,ker jaz imam vsaj argumente, postene.

Tisti link pa govori o uporabi geomtrije v namen opazovanje, spremljanja soncnih pojavo. Imas tudi slike, ki kazejo kako sonce sledi meridianski črti na tleh cerkve..tipičen dokaz za poganski vpliv.

Pojasni mi prosim, kaj dela 8 kraka zvezda na pročelju vatikanske stavbe?(enaka kot 8kraka Ishtar) Ne in to ni Davidova zvezda, ta je 6 kraka. Mogoče predstavlja sonce?:)

Glede prve slike... ni naravno da mati pestuje dojenčka?

Ki se pojavljajo kot osrednje božanstvo,prikazano na enak način in to v zelo veliko "različnih" religija?

The placing of Mary in a crescent is a remnant of the fertility cults of the ancient mother-goddess, traceable to the Babylonian queen, Semiramis, titled, "Mother of God," and "Queen of Heaven."

Pojasni mi zkaj je sonce na vrhu kupole SV. Petra? Će nima nobene povezave kao s krščanstvom?

Zakaj svetnike prikazujejo s sijem v ozadju, prav tako kot poganska bozanstva?

In zakaj za vraga počne egipčanski obelisk sredi vaticana? Če nima krščanstvo nič s poganskimi religijami?

Prosim pojasni mi.

Se pravi krščanski bog časti oko? Si ti prepričan, da veš kaj govoriš?

mogoče tista zvezda predstavlja zvezdo??

Pa to sem ti že dejal da predstavlja Ishtar zvezdo!!!

Ki se pojavljajo kot osrednje božanstvo,prikazano na enak način in to v zelo veliko "različnih" religija?

Imajo tudi tista božanstva kaj veze s soncem, ker ti je tako pomemben?

Seveda imajo, kult časščenja sonca, lune itd je del poganskih religij. Nesporno!

amm... mogoče ker je imela prejšna največja cerkev tudi? Pantheon, @ Wikipedia...

Seveda, ker je bila poganska kot RKC!

Zakaj svetnike prikazujejo s sijem v ozadju, prav tako kot poganska bozanstva?
saj si napisal: The disk was used to represent any being as a god or goddess ... to pomeni da so vsi bogovi, bogovi sonca? Pač religije vplivajo druga na drugo, a to ne pomeni, da je jezus bog sonca

A zato, ker si ti tako rekel??? LOLOLOLOL

btw, vtipkaj v google sun worship church

In zakaj za vraga počne egipčanski obelisk sredi vaticana? Če nima krščanstvo nič s poganskimi religijami?
kaj za vraga počne egipčanski obelisk sredi ljubljane? pa lepo te prosim, Trg svetega petra je bil zgrajen v renesansi in takrat so v arhitekturo vpeljali mnogo antičnih stvari.

Seveda, so jih!! In to z veseljem. Se kip sv. Petra so uvozili, ki je nekoc predstavljal v Pantheonu boga Jupitra!! Predstavljaj si to!

Ki se pojavljajo kot osrednje božanstvo,prikazano na enak način in to v zelo veliko "različnih" religija?

The placing of Mary in a crescent is a remnant of the fertility cults of the ancient mother-goddess, traceable to the Babylonian queen, Semiramis, titled, "Mother of God," and "Queen of Heaven."

Zgresil?

Veš za tisti del v bibliji, ko sv. trije kralji sledijo zvezdi? :)

How convenient story:)

Krščanstvo ni pogansko... preberi si definicijo poganstva

V osnovni ideji res ne,kot jo je,če jo je siril Kristus.

Samo to kar počne Cerkev, kaksne simbole uporablja, pa kaže, ne samo kaže, potrjuje da je vpeljala mnoge poganske simbole, in to že od zgodnjih dni. In papež in kardinali me spomnjajo na egipčanske svečenike. Če branis krščanstvo zaradi izvornih kristusovih idej bi te se razumel..če pa trolas in ne opaziš resnično očitne stvari, pol pa ti res ni pomoči..verska zasljepljenost ali kaj. Ne vem.

Ne rekel sem tole,

V osnovni ideji res ne,kot jo je,če jo je siril Kristus.

Danasnja RKC pa je poganska religija! Ti odebelim,narisem, podpisem???

Kot sem pa že povedal je cerkev postavila nekatere praznike na datum poganskih ZATO, DA BI POGANI LAŽJE PRESTOPILI V KRŠČANSTVO

Mislis pogani v drugo pogansko religijo?:)