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Ali koran res poziva k terorizmu/nasilju do nevernikov?

Ali koran res poziva k terorizmu/nasilju do nevernikov?

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sinsinjega ::

Ubistvu ne vidim razloga da ga ne bi, glede na to da je prosto deljen pdf. fyi, jezik je bosanski.

In še nekaj indicev/za nekatere dokazov, ki so tudi na CD-ju in ki kažejo da je Alah resničen:

 alah roka

alah roka



 klanjanje proti meki

klanjanje proti meki



 uho alaha

uho alaha



 banana alah

banana alah




Še en pdf, v katerem so večja znanstvena dognanja razložena s kuranom, oziroma naj bi jih koran sam že kar razkrival če bi ga dovolj podrobno brali, kot naprimer Einsteinova teorija relativnosti ipd. : tule

no, mislim da bo dovolj ....

AmokRun ::

no, mislim da bo dovolj ....

Ne, hočemo še!:))
Banana Alah lol

PaX_MaN ::

 Mal so skoz, heh, prste pošpegal.

Mal so skoz, heh, prste pošpegal.

Matako ::

Najboljše so mi razne "resne" debate muslimanov (vkl. profesorji na univerzah ipd.) kako naj npr. islamski astronavt izvede jutranjo molitev. Kdaj (molitev ob napačnem času je greh)? V kateri smeri? Mora slediti z glavo Meki med orbitiranjem? Odklop.
/\/\.K.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: Matako ()

gruntfürmich ::

mislim da bi morali psihičem tipa sinsinjega, tio2, dusvult, saladin... podeliti poseben naziv. da vemo ostali uporabniki s kom imamo opravka.:))
"Namreč, da gre ta družba počasi v norost in da je vse, kar mi gledamo,
visoko organizirana bebavost, do podrobnosti izdelana idiotija."
Psiholog HUBERT POŽARNIK, v Oni, o smiselnosti moderne družbe...

Pyr0Beast ::

OMG. Tako dobro se še nisem smejal.

Subjektivno interpretirana slika s strani osebka ki že tako vidi vse kot podobo stvarnika.

 Smeh

Smeh

Some nanoparticles are more equal than others

Good work: Any notion of sanity and critical thought is off-topic in this place

Thomas ::

gruntfürmich!

Saladin je pameten, magari je religiozen in ni edin tak.

Se pa strinjam, da eni tile so pa hude perle.
Man muss immer generalisieren - Carl Jacobi

sinsinjega ::

@gruntfürmich,
ne razumem, zakaj sem jaz tu psihič, zato ker sm odprl tole temo?

ahac ::

Ne zato, ker si odpru temo. Zato, ker vidiš neke dokaze v vsaki bedariji pa ja...
Mislm, če se gremo tko dokazovat... potem z lahkoto dokažemo tud, da je Janko in Metka čist resnična zgodba al pa da imam jaz supermoči.
Slo-Tech Discord - https://discord.gg/ppCtzMW

gruntfürmich ::

Thomas je izjavil:

gruntfürmich!

Saladin je pameten, magari je religiozen in ni edin tak.

Se pa strinjam, da eni tile so pa hude perle.


se zelo strinjam, in ne spada v četico tehle pacientov. vendar pa me nenehno preseneča z iskanjem Onega...:D
"Namreč, da gre ta družba počasi v norost in da je vse, kar mi gledamo,
visoko organizirana bebavost, do podrobnosti izdelana idiotija."
Psiholog HUBERT POŽARNIK, v Oni, o smiselnosti moderne družbe...

sinsinjega ::

Zato, ker vidiš neke dokaze v vsaki bedariji pa ja...


uff narobe si me razumel, samo to je :)


  • 1. nisem veren

  • 2. temo sem odprl ker sem hotel s pomočjo inteligentnih ljudi ugotovit, ali koran poziva k nasilju ali ne. To se mi namreč zdi izjemno pomembno vprašanje. Če bi prebral temo bi videl, da sem tiste pdf-je in slike objavil, ker sem jih slucajno dobil od nekega vernika in ker je na tem forumu pogosto debata o evoluciji in bogu.

  • 3. slike ki sem jih objavil so absurdne, še bolj pa je šokanten tisti pdf.



Ob branju korana sem zgrožen nad tem, kar naj bi bila sveta in od boga dana beseda in dlje ko berem, bolj me je dejansko strah teh ljudi. Vsiljevanje in grožnje na vsakem koraku, miroljubna religija my ass, opravičila za izraženo nasilje v obliki nekih kontekstovnih razlag izzvenijo prazno in vodeno. Samo to je bilo bistvo tele teme, ALI KORAN POZIVA K NASILJU ALI NE pa ste odbluzili do pedofilije in nazaj :) no, moj zaključek je preprost:

DA, KORAN POZIVA K NASILJU IN ISLAM NI MIROLJUBNA RELIGIJA.

gruntfürmich ::

sinsinjega je izjavil:



# 1. nisem veren

# 2. temo sem odprl ker sem hotel s pomočjo inteligentnih ljudi ugotovit, ali koran poziva k nasilju ali ne. To se mi namreč zdi izjemno pomembno vprašanje. Če bi prebral temo bi videl, da sem tiste pdf-je in slike objavil, ker sem jih slucajno dobil od nekega vernika in ker je na tem forumu pogosto debata o evoluciji in bogu.

# 3. slike ki sem jih objavil so absurdne, še bolj pa je šokanten tisti pdf.


potem pa se prosim pravilno in jasno izražaj, da te bomo razumeli...
"Namreč, da gre ta družba počasi v norost in da je vse, kar mi gledamo,
visoko organizirana bebavost, do podrobnosti izdelana idiotija."
Psiholog HUBERT POŽARNIK, v Oni, o smiselnosti moderne družbe...

Zgodovina sprememb…

i386 ::

Problem ni v raznih svetih knjigah, problem je v ljudeh. Večino muslimanou en klinc briga če piše v koranu, da ubij nevernika al kaj že piše. Tisti, ki pa hočejo uničiti ne vem koga bi pa svoj razlog za uničenje našli še v hitrosti rasti trave, kaj šele v koranu. Pa taki so vseposod pa naj bo musliman, kristjan ali ateist.

Mipe ::

Islam je privlačen zato, ker Koran ponuja potuho vsem, ki se čutijo omejene v tem svetu. Moškim da izgovor za šovinizem, ker jih poviša nad ženske in jim s tem daje občutek moči, ženskam pa daje varno vlogo v družini. Vsakemu ponuja nekaj. Spolnemu zadrtežemu ponuja 72 devic v nebesih, zato se jim tako mudi, da si pomagajo z ekplozivi okrog pasu.

Mislim, da trenutno Islam prehaja skozi podobno obdobje kot Krščanstvo pred 2 tisočletji, ko jih je Rimski Imperij zatiral (za časa Janeza Pavla). Zatirani narodi so videli potuho v krščanskih naukih in jih posvojili.

Zdaj Islam ponuja potuho tako ali drugače zatiranim, predvsem tistim, ki imajo občutek, da jih ogroža zahodna civilizacija. Rim je padel... bo tudi Zahod?

Bananovec ::

OFFtopic:
Kaj pa če bi mi Slo-Techovci ustvarili novo vero, tako bolj moderno.
Lahko bi bil devičnikoizem.
Vsi člani bi prisegli, da nikoli ne bi seksali.
Imeli bi tudi svojo sveto knjiho Kamasutro in lastno telo, ki bi ga častili. Govorili bi mu Penis.
Imeli bi tudi boga (like a rimski bog=bog spolnosti).
Menim, da bi se na ST to kar dobro obneslo!:D
Malo za šalo

Okapi ::

moj zaključek je preprost:
No, tvoj zaključek je zelo napačen. Evo, tole je delček intervjuja z enim najboljših rock kitaristov, Richardom Thompsonom, ki je že v mladih letih prestopil v islam.

Vprašanje: Yet, looking at you or your sometime bassist Danny Thompson (no relation), you don't look like what many Westerners picture as Muslims. You look like guys you might have a beer with at the pub. Do you still describe yourself as a 'liberal Muslim'?

Odgovor: Sure. A lot of what is seen as Islam in the West comes from the loudest shouting voices, the neo-Islamic fundamentalists. The willingness to fight, that violent side, is a misinterpretation and a misapplication of the teachings of the Prophet. It ignores the heart of Islam: peace, generosity, compassion. Islam is about winning hearts and minds. There is no compulsion in Islam at all. That's a fact.

http://nightlight.typepad.com/nightligh...

O.

sinsinjega ::

@Okapi,
torej moj zaključek je napačen, ker je Richard Thompson rekel da je islam sočuten in miroljuben?

sočutje:
Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise


miroljubnost:
Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home)



misinterpretacija:
The Quran states that it is made easy to understand (V11:1, V41:3, V41:44, V54:17, V54:22, V54:32, V54:40 and in many other places) so no one is allowed to divert its literal meaning!



Kje je torej misinterpretacija, če je dovoljeno samo dobesedno razumevanje in kje sta miroljubnost in sočutje če Alah favorizira tiste ki se borijo nad tistimi ki sedijo doma in če mi grozi s mučenjem in odiranjem če jim ne bom sledil?

Zgodovina sprememb…

Okapi ::

če je dovoljeno samo dobesedno razumevanje
Zakaj torej ne bereš dobesedno? Ne grozi z odiranjem, ampak da ti bodo vsakokrat, kot ti bo stara koža zgorela, dali novo svežo kožo, da te bodo lahko še naprej žgali. Kako točno dobesedno ti lahko dajo novo kožo? Ko boš to pogruntal, ti bo mogoče tudi ostalo jasno.

O.

sinsinjega ::

Naslov teme je ali koran poziva k nasilju. Vprašanje. Ne trditev. Zakaj namesto da zviška nekaj rentačiš čez moje nerazumevanje ne daš konstruktivne in racionalne razlage za pozive nasilju in grožnje v koranu. Demantiraj to kar sem napisal. Ampak vse kar si doslej napisal je naivna romantična izjava britanskega kitarista, ki pravi da je islam sočuten in miroljuben. In to je to? To je tvoj veliki argument?! In impliciraš da jaz ne razumem. Ok, ne razumem. Iz te točke sem štartal temo. Zato pa sprašujem, ti razumeš? Potem pa razloži. Pojasni mi tole:


misinterpretacija:
The Quran states that it is made easy to understand (V11:1, V41:3, V41:44, V54:17, V54:22, V54:32, V54:40 and in many other places) so no one is allowed to divert its literal meaning

sočutje:
Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise


miroljubnost:
Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home)!


in mi sedaj razloži kako je lahko takšna retorika seme miroljubne in sočutne religije?



PS
to sta samo dva od ogromno primerov ...

Pyr0Beast ::

Kitarist je lahko miroljuben. Fanatik pa ni.
Kaj to pove o veri ?

Da si jo ukroji vsak po svojih potrebah.
Some nanoparticles are more equal than others

Good work: Any notion of sanity and critical thought is off-topic in this place

sinsinjega ::

Pyr0Beast je izjavil:

Kitarist je lahko miroljuben. Fanatik pa ni.
Kaj to pove o veri ?

Da si jo ukroji vsak po svojih potrebah.


ja, ampak debata ni o tem, ali so muslimani nasilni ker so muslimani, ampak se sprašujem ali jim koran narekuje nasilje. Ni vprašanje ali si vero vsak po svoji kroji, ker se strinjam s teboj da si jo in zato tudi ne trdim da so muslimani nemiroljubni ljudje. Seveda da so lahko miroljubni, vero si kot praviš, lahko prikrojijo po svoje in lahko berejo svoj koran na nek mističen, po svoje "miroljubno" interpretiran način.

Ampak ... evo vzemi koran v roke in ga preberi in mi odgovori: ali poziva k nasilju nad neverniki ali ne? Ali ti grozi s peklom in mučenjem če se ne pokoriš njihovemu bogu in mohamedovim učenjem?

Okapi ::

ali jim koran narekuje nasilje
In bolj kot ti razlagamo, da ga ne narekuje, bolj neumnega se delaš. A če ti bom citiral kakšnega imama boš bolj zadovoljen?
Mohamed Elmasry
http://www.mediamonitors.net/elmasry31....
The Qur'an repeatedly emphasizes that defensive war -- fighting to protect oneself against invading enemies -- is the only kind of combat sanctioned (2:190 - 191). In numerous other examples, it teaches that the use of force should be a last resort (2:192, 4:90); that normal relations between peoples, nations and states, whether Muslim or not, should be peaceful (49:13); that necessary wars must be limited in time and space (2:190); that maximum effort must be applied at all times to advance the cause of peace (10:25); that whatever means are undertaken to work for peace during a conflict (such as mediation and arbitration) must be attempted over and over again until resolution is achieved (8:61); that freedom of religion must be granted to every one (2:256), and so on.


O.

Pyr0Beast ::

Ampak ... evo vzemi koran v roke in ga preberi in mi odgovori: ali poziva k nasilju nad neverniki ali ne? Ali ti grozi s peklom in mučenjem če se ne pokoriš njihovemu bogu in mohamedovim učenjem?

Ne morem, ker vem da bo rezultat takega branja izključno negativen. Pa ne zaradi vsebine ampak zaradi predispozicij do knjige.

Sam knjige raje vidim kot ojačevalnik/pomnoževalnik raznih misli in ne izključno kot vodilo v smislu, da s takim naklonom kakor boš vstopil noter, z enakim a močnejšim boš končal.

Ne velja pa to za vse knjige. Nekatere so zelo nevtralne, nekatere celo obrnejo človeka v drugo smer.
Some nanoparticles are more equal than others

Good work: Any notion of sanity and critical thought is off-topic in this place

energetik ::

Zheegec je izjavil:

Organizacija je pa ista in še vedno se ni opravičila za svoje grehe, vključno s sodelovanjem s Hitlerjem in Musollinijem (to bi pa znalo biti celo manj, kot 400 let nazaj?).

Da se ni opravičila? Osebno sem leta 2000 sedel v baziliki Sv. Petra in poslušal, ko se je Janez Pavel 2 opravičeval.

YaN-cH ::

Da se ni opravičila? Osebno sem leta 2000 sedel v baziliki Sv. Petra in poslušal, ko se je Janez Pavel 2 opravičeval.
Predvsem se je potrebno vprašati komu se je opravičil. Za nekatere je to opravičilo vredno natanko kot toaletni papir druge roke.

Saladin ::

vendar pa me nenehno preseneča z iskanjem Onega...

Mar tebe ne zanima ultimativna narava Realnosti (kolikor smo je pač možni doumeti)?

Zame je to pač izjemno pomembno vprašanje in maksimalno objektivno ali vsaj razumno deducirano ga poskušam razvozlati.

Tudi drugim je to vprašanje pomembno - le da so eni bolj objektivni pri iskanju odgovora nanj, drugi manj. Tisti, ki pa že "ve" odgovor, pa je še najbolj v zablodi.
Dobro je kar nosi največ svobodne koristi/najmanj bolečine čim več sentientom
na najhitrejši, najvarnejši in najbolj moralen način za najdaljše obdobje.
"Utilitarianizem po Saladinovo"

Mipe ::

Obrnimo se nazaj k izvirnemu vprašanju... Ali koran res poziva k terorizmu/nasilju do nevernikov? Pustimo Koran in poglejmo verske voditelje. Kot vidimo, jih je kar nekaj, ki kličejo fatve na vse, ki bi najmanj pokazali Islam v negativni luči. Poglejmo samo tistega nesrečnega komika.

Ni videti, da bi verski voditelji drugih religij pozivali k nasilju.

Zheegec ::

energetik je izjavil:

Zheegec je izjavil:

Organizacija je pa ista in še vedno se ni opravičila za svoje grehe, vključno s sodelovanjem s Hitlerjem in Musollinijem (to bi pa znalo biti celo manj, kot 400 let nazaj?).

Da se ni opravičila? Osebno sem leta 2000 sedel v baziliki Sv. Petra in poslušal, ko se je Janez Pavel 2 opravičeval.

No, če je tako se pa opravičujem jaz. Za kaj konkretno se je opravičil? je kje transscript?
"božja zapoved pravi; <Spoštuj očeta in mater>,
ne govori pa o spoštovanju sodstva."
Janez Janša, 29.04.2014

energetik ::

Eh takrat me kot srednješolca ni kaj posebno zanimalo, mislim pa da se je opravičeval za inkvizicijo, križarske vojne ipd. Bom poskusil najti prevod govora, ker maševal je verjetno v italijanščini.
Sicer pa to ne spada glih v temo.

Manu ::

Zelo zanimiv članek gospe Ayaan Hirsi Ali (ki je zapustila islam) z naslovom "Zakaj so muslimani tako hipersenzitivni?"

Tej gospe grozijo s smrtjo in ima zaradi tega osebnega varnostnika ob sebi. Sodelovala je v dokumentarcu, ki ga je ustvaril danski novinar Theo Van Gogh, ki je bil umorjen.
Ima magisterij iz političnih znanosti. Ker je odraščala v islamski religiji zelo dobro pozna to okolje. Njen pogled je precej jasen kar se tiče Islama.

Nekaj njenih misli:

(o desničarstvu in strpnosti)
I'm not being rightwing," she says. "The people who believe themselves to be on the left, and who defend the agents of Islam in the name of tolerance and culture, are being rightwing. Not just rightwing. Extreme rightwing. I don't understand how you can be so upset about the Christian right and just ignore the Islamic right. I'm talking about equality.

(o militantnosti Islama)
But if you compare the reaction of Christians to what is written about Christianity – Richard Dawkins, who's a supporter, says religion is a form of madness – whereby Christians just shrug their shoulders and don't respond. If you compare the way Muslims take offence at perceived insults that are not insults, but are just a critical way of looking at their religion, then I start to ask myself, why are Muslims so hypersensitive to criticism and why don't they do anything with it except to respond by denying it or playing the victim? And I've come to the conclusion it's because of the gradual indoctrination – from parents, teachers – that everything in the Qur'an is true; Muhammad is infallible, you have to follow his example and defend Islam at all times, at all costs. Instead of going along as most people are doing now and saying, OK, let's refrain from criticising Islam, let's refrain from calling Islamic terrorism Islamic, I think we should do the opposite.

(o rasizmu in religiji)
When people throw out accusations of racism they forget that Islam is not a race but a religion; one chooses to follow it.


(precej zanimiv je tudi ta njen pogled o pomanjkanju vitamina D pri muslimankah)
When Muslim women in the Hague were found to have high instances of vitamin D deficiency, health workers put it down to poverty and not, as Hirsi Ali says came out in the interviews, to the fact they were deprived of sunlight because they didn't have permission to leave the house until their husbands came home at night.

(o njenem pogledu na feminizem)
...that is going to focus on issues faced by non-western women, because they are the biggest issues. To own your own sexuality, as an adult woman; to choose your own lifestyle; to have access to education [when] what we see in the Muslim world is girls being pulled out of school and married off before they've completed their education. These things, I think, are more basic than the stuff that current feminists are concerning themselves with – like shattering the glass ceiling or finding a balance between work and home life. There was a long article in the New York Times that went on and on about who [in a couple] would load and unload the dishwasher. If you have a career and you're so intelligent, you can work that out. You don't have to have a manifesto. There is feminism that has evolved to a kind of luxury.


Ne smemo pozabiti, da je tudi ona odraščala v Islamu in je tudi sama zelo neposredna z militantno mentaliteto, ko govori o Islamu in je v eni izmed svojih knjig napisala: "Nasilje je sestavni del" islamske socialne discipline.

Še več pa v članku (povezava je zgoraj).

krneki0001 ::

Avenger je izjavil:

Težava religij (razen budizma in verjetno še katere) je v tem, da so zelo prikladni vzvodi moči za manipuliranje množic. Cerkev je bila včasih precej bolj žleht od Islama, zdaj je pa skoraj obratno.


Budizem ni nič drugačen in je zelo slab. Tudi budisti niso nič boljši od ostalih.

Pyr0Beast ::

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition ? :)

Vsaka vera postane nemudoma slaba ko se jo začne izkoriščati za določne ideologije/agende. In nekatere so bolj priročne od drugih.
Some nanoparticles are more equal than others

Good work: Any notion of sanity and critical thought is off-topic in this place

JanK ::

i386 je izjavil:

Ne vem kako je cerkev sodelovala z okupatorjem. Povej ti. Oni so se samo postavili na stran fašizma, kar je bilo nujno za obstoj vatikana. Verjetno so se morali tako odločiti tudi zaradi pritiskov fašizma. Kaj bi pa ti storil? Rekel da je fašizem za en klinc in tako uničil svoj obstoj?


Zakaj bi bilo to tako nepredstavljivo. Pozor, govorimo o organizaciji, ki si lasti pravico, da vsem soli pamet o morali. In ce so ze tako moralni, bi seveda seveda morali upreti fasizmu. Namesto tega so pac stisnili rep med noge, ker so se zbali za svoje riti. Kje je tukaj moralno obnasanje?

Mipe ::

Saj dajejo odpustke. So si pač sebi odpustili. ;)

Manu ::

Islam je nasilna religija (na splošno gledano) - povezava.

JanK ::

Krscanstvo je nasilna religija (na splosno gledano)

3567 mrvih na Irskem

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Oklahoma City bombing
This truck bomb attack by right-wing extremists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people – the deadliest domestic-based terrorist attack in US history and, before the September 11, 2001 attacks, the deadliest act of terrorism in US history. It inspired improvements to United States federal building security.

Motivation, ideology and theology
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Vse v imenu boga!

ViperR ::

sinsinjega je izjavil:

Zato, ker vidiš neke dokaze v vsaki bedariji pa ja...


uff narobe si me razumel, samo to je :)


  • 1. nisem veren

  • 2. temo sem odprl ker sem hotel s pomočjo inteligentnih ljudi ugotovit, ali koran poziva k nasilju ali ne. To se mi namreč zdi izjemno pomembno vprašanje. Če bi prebral temo bi videl, da sem tiste pdf-je in slike objavil, ker sem jih slucajno dobil od nekega vernika in ker je na tem forumu pogosto debata o evoluciji in bogu.

  • 3. slike ki sem jih objavil so absurdne, še bolj pa je šokanten tisti pdf.



Ob branju korana sem zgrožen nad tem, kar naj bi bila sveta in od boga dana beseda in dlje ko berem, bolj me je dejansko strah teh ljudi. Vsiljevanje in grožnje na vsakem koraku, miroljubna religija my ass, opravičila za izraženo nasilje v obliki nekih kontekstovnih razlag izzvenijo prazno in vodeno. Samo to je bilo bistvo tele teme, ALI KORAN POZIVA K NASILJU ALI NE pa ste odbluzili do pedofilije in nazaj :) no, moj zaključek je preprost:

DA, KORAN POZIVA K NASILJU IN ISLAM NI MIROLJUBNA RELIGIJA.


whats wrong whit you people???

Mipe ::

Naslov te teme je "Ali koran res poziva k terorizmu/nasilju do nevernikov?"

Če smo dlakocepski, je odgovor v Koranu samem. Povsod v Koranu se najdejo reference na nasilje nad neverniki. Torej je odgovor zelo preprost - DA, poziva k nasilju nad neverniki. Terorizma pa Koran ne pozna, samo vojne in nasilje.

Če bi bilo vprašanje "Ali so muslimani nasilni?", mislim, da se je tema sukala okrog tega namesto okrog napisanega vprašanja v naslovu. Tu pa je odgovor bolj siv kot črnobel, tu namreč ne moremo posploševati. Da, nekateri muslimani so nasilni, pozivajo k nasilju in pošiljajo otroke in ženske razstreljevat se v trge. Nekateri med njimi so celo vidni, visoke verske ali politične figure kova Jelinčić, ki si na ta način nabirajo točke. Ne, večina muslimanov tega sploh ne počne, pravzaprav taškna dejanja obsojajo, ljubši jim je mir in znajo biti prijetni gostitelji.

Lahko zdaj končamo z to nesmiselno debato?

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: Mipe ()

Okapi ::

Če smo dlakocepski, je odgovor v Koranu samem. Povsod v Koranu se najdejo reference na nasilje nad neverniki. Torej je odgovor zelo preprost - DA, poziva k nasilju nad neverniki.
To je velika laž. A si prebral Koran? Sem 100% prepričan, da ga nisi.

Koran v resnici poziva k miru. Nasilje je dopustno le pri obrambi, ko te nekdo napade. Če te nekdo napade in se braniš, pa temu ne moreš reči pozivanje k nasilju.

Krščansko Sveto pismo neprimerno bolj "poziva k nasilju", ker tam pa bog res ukazuje in podpira krvavo nasilje tudi v napadalne, ne samo obrambne namene.

O.

Manu ::

JanK je izjavil:

Krscanstvo je nasilna religija (na splosno gledano)

3567 mrvih na Irskem

Lord's Resistance Army (also Lord's Resistance Movement or Lakwena Part Two) is a sectarian Christian militant group based in northern Uganda.
The group was formed in 1987 and is engaged in an armed rebellion against the Ugandan government in what is now one of Africa's longest-running conflicts. It is led by Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the "spokesperson" of God and a spirit medium, primarily of the Holy Spirit, which the Acholi believe can represent itself in many manifestations.
- In January, 1997 the LRA attacked Lamwo, in northern Uganda. More than 400 people are killed, and approximately 100,000 people are displaced.
- In May, 2002 the LRA attacked Eastern Equatoria in Sudan. An estimated 450 people were killed, and witnesses state some villagers were forced to walk off a cliff.
- On December 25, 2008, the LRA massacred 189 people and abducted 120 children during a concert celebration sponsored by the Catholic church in Faradje, Democratic Republic of Congo, continuing the attack on December 26. Shortly afterwards, the LRA struck three additional communities: 75 people killed in a church north of Dungu, and the church burned; 48 people killed in Bangadi, and 213 people in Gurba. The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs estimated the death toll as 189 in Faradje, Doruma and Gurba. However, Caritas International estimated the number of victims to be about 500.

Oklahoma City bombing
This truck bomb attack by right-wing extremists Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols killed 168 people – the deadliest domestic-based terrorist attack in US history and, before the September 11, 2001 attacks, the deadliest act of terrorism in US history. It inspired improvements to United States federal building security.

Motivation, ideology and theology
Christian views on abortion have been cited by Christian individuals and groups that are responsible for threats, assault, murder, and bombings against abortion clinics and doctors across the United States and Canada.
Christian Identity is a loosely affiliated global group of churches and individuals devoted to a racialized theology that asserts North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. It has been associated with groups such as the Aryan Nations, Aryan Republican Army, Army of God, Phineas Priesthood, and The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. It has been cited as an influence in a number of terrorist attacks around the world, including the 2002 Soweto bombings


Vse v imenu boga!

Mi tu govorimo o islamu in ne kristjanih. To je potem druga tema.

Mogoče je Islam sam po sebi miroljuben, ampak na žalost muslimani niso preveč miroljubni. Seveda ne vsi verjetno, ampak preveč nasilja se dogaja danes v imenu islama in to kvari njegov ugled.

Jaz nisem kristjan, ampak smatram za krščanstvo v afriki za nasilno. V evropi in severni ameriki pa ne.

Ko bodo ljudje postali malo bolj civilizirani in se nehali fanatično identificirati z religijo in misliti, da imajo oni edino prav, do takrat bodo religije nasilne. Najbolj nasilna pa je Islam, glede na nasilne dejavnosti v zadnjih vsaj 10 letih. Žal.

Okapi ::

Koliko ljudi so v zadnjih 10 letih ubili talibani in koliko ameriški vojaki?

O.

Manu ::

Okapi je izjavil:

Koliko ljudi so v zadnjih 10 letih ubili talibani in koliko ameriški vojaki?

O.

Ampak ameriški vojaki ne predstavljajo religijo, ampak državo in še to kapitalistično, ki fanatično verjame v 'ameriško demokracijo'.

Eden od temeljev nasilja je fanatizem. Tako politični, kot religijski.

Drug temelj nasilja je napačna identifikacija. Ko se identificiraš oz. poistovetiš z verovanjem ali politično ideologijo. Ti nisi ideja. Ideja se spremeni, tisti temeljni JAZ pa ostane isti. Napačna identifikacija vodi v nepotrebne konflikte in posledično nasilje.

Tega je pri muslimanih preveč v primerjavi z zahodnim svetom.

Zato pravim, da je islam (oz. trenutni ljudje, ki so muslimani na svetovni ravni) preveč in najbolj agresivni (poleg kapitalizma, ampak to je druga tema)...

Okapi ::

Še eden pač, ki ne razume niti islama niti pravih vzrokov za nasilje. Tolažiš se lahko s tem, da še zdaleč nisi osamljen.

O.

Manu ::

Okapi je izjavil:

Še eden pač, ki ne razume niti islama niti pravih vzrokov za nasilje. Tolažiš se lahko s tem, da še zdaleč nisi osamljen.

O.

Ti si pa še eden izmed tistih, ki misli, da ima edino prav, in so vsi drugi brez znanja.

Potem pa napiši zakaj. Kaj še čakaš?????

Mipe ::

Okapi je izjavil:

Če smo dlakocepski, je odgovor v Koranu samem. Povsod v Koranu se najdejo reference na nasilje nad neverniki. Torej je odgovor zelo preprost - DA, poziva k nasilju nad neverniki.
To je velika laž. A si prebral Koran? Sem 100% prepričan, da ga nisi.

Koran v resnici poziva k miru. Nasilje je dopustno le pri obrambi, ko te nekdo napade. Če te nekdo napade in se braniš, pa temu ne moreš reči pozivanje k nasilju.

Krščansko Sveto pismo neprimerno bolj "poziva k nasilju", ker tam pa bog res ukazuje in podpira krvavo nasilje tudi v napadalne, ne samo obrambne namene.

O.


Ne žali me, to ni nobena laž, laž je sprenevedanje, da ti verzi ne nagovarjajo k nasilju.
Vir: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran...

Ker pa dvomim, da boš v svoji liberalni zaslepljenosti prebral vsebino na povezavi, sicer pa ima stran mogoče res bias, tu je nekaj verzov neposredno iz Korana:


Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.



Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."



Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.



Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."



Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').



Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.



Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"



Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."



Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).



Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?



Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"



Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.



Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."



Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."



Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."



Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."



Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.



Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."



Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.



Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.


Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"



Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.



Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).


Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.



Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."



Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."



Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"



Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.



Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"



Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"



Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?



Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.



Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!



Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.



Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.


Takih verzov je 109, glede na članek, ki sem ga linkal. Islam NI religija miru, ker NE uči tolerance niti je NE podpira. Kdo je zdaj lažnivec?

Okapi ::

Kaj bi rad citate iz Svetega pisma? Recimo Navodila za vojno?
Ko ti [oblegano mesto] GOSPOD, tvoj Bog, da v roke, pobij vse moške v njem z ostrino meča


Mogoče kaj o kaznih?
Kdor udari svojega očeta ali mater, naj bo kaznovan s smrtjo.
Kdor preklinja svojega očeta ali mater, naj bo kaznovan s smrtjo.


Si prepričan, da bi rad primerjal Koran z Biblijo?

O.

hamax ::

Kaj bi rad citate iz Svetega pisma? Recimo Navodila za vojno?

A je kdo slucajno rekel, da biblija ne poziva k nasilju?
Mim si brcnu, zdej se pa vn vleces ...

redo ::

Manu je izjavil:

Okapi je izjavil:

Koliko ljudi so v zadnjih 10 letih ubili talibani in koliko ameriški vojaki?

O.

Ampak ameriški vojaki ne predstavljajo religijo, ampak državo in še to kapitalistično, ki fanatično verjame v 'ameriško demokracijo'.

Kako da ne? Saj je vrhovni poglavar ameriške vojske povedal, da mu Bog pravi koga naj napade.

Mipe ::

Okapi je izjavil:

Kaj bi rad citate iz Svetega pisma? Recimo Navodila za vojno?
Ko ti [oblegano mesto] GOSPOD, tvoj Bog, da v roke, pobij vse moške v njem z ostrino meča


Mogoče kaj o kaznih?
Kdor udari svojega očeta ali mater, naj bo kaznovan s smrtjo.
Kdor preklinja svojega očeta ali mater, naj bo kaznovan s smrtjo.


Si prepričan, da bi rad primerjal Koran z Biblijo?

O.

Lej, tu je govora o Koranu, nihče ni nič rekel o primerjavi z Biblijo. Sicer pa mi dol visi zanjo, ker sem agnostik. Ne, samo dejstva navajam, in sicer je dejstvo, da Koran vsebuje verze, ki pozivajo k nasilju oziroma ga upravičujejo. To je to.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: Mipe ()

JanK ::

Manu je izjavil:


Mi tu govorimo o islamu in ne kristjanih. To je potem druga tema.

Mogoče je Islam sam po sebi miroljuben, ampak na žalost muslimani niso preveč miroljubni. Seveda ne vsi verjetno, ampak preveč nasilja se dogaja danes v imenu islama in to kvari njegov ugled.

Jaz nisem kristjan, ampak smatram za krščanstvo v afriki za nasilno. V evropi in severni ameriki pa ne.

Ko bodo ljudje postali malo bolj civilizirani in se nehali fanatično identificirati z religijo in misliti, da imajo oni edino prav, do takrat bodo religije nasilne. Najbolj nasilna pa je Islam, glede na nasilne dejavnosti v zadnjih vsaj 10 letih. Žal.


Poanta je bila, da ime vere nima prav nobene veze, zato sem dal primere, ko se je v zadnjem desetletju krscanska vera uporabila za izgovor za masakre. V zgodovini so se dogajali masakri v imenu pomoje prav vsake vere, ne glede na to, kaj pravijo njene osnovne pravljice. Zato misli, da ni prav govoriti, da je neka vera v osnovi bolj ali manj nasilna.

Konec konev, ne vem, ce so muslimani tisti, ki so zadnjih 20 letih pobili najvec ljudi. Za to gredo PMSM zasluge JLA & company (razni Arkani in podobni), kjer so nosili vero na rokavu. Karadzic, Mladic in ostali so se (po tem, ko je JLA postala Srbska LA) krizali pred akcijami, v katerih je bilo skupaj ubitih okoli 80000 ljudi na Hrvaskem in v Bosni vec kot milijon pregnanih, patriarh Pavel pa je to vec ali manj vse pozegnal, ali pa vsaj ni nasprotoval. Ali to pomeni, da je ortodoksna krscanska vera najbolj nasilna v bliznji zgodovini?

To, da so trenutno muslimani tisti, ki izvajajo najvec teroristicnih dejanj, ne vem, ce ima kaj dosti zveze s samim islamom. Predstavljaj si, da nekdo na nek nacin dobij dovolj orozja in prevzame oblast v ZDA (govorim zelo ohlapno in teoreticno). Potem bi tisti trenutek krscanstvo (spet) postalo dalec najbolj nasilno (ce ze sedaj, ko jim ni nic kaj hudega, obcasno razstrelijo stavbo ali pa ubijejo kaksnega zdravnika ali dva), ko bi se pac na partizanski nacin borili proti okupatorju.

Malo si poglej, recimo, letnice na strani Islamic terrorism @ Wikipedia. Vec ali manj vse islamske teroristicne organizacije so nastale po letu 1980, ko jim je bilo pocasi zadosti vmesavanja zahoda, predvsem ZDA. Da sploh ne omenimo tega, da so nekatere izmed teh skupin za zacetek dobivale podporo ZDA, recimo v Afganistanu.

Kdaj se je zacel verski fundamentalizem v Iranu (poenostavljeno)? Po besedah Madeleine Albright:

"In 1953 the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran's popular Prime Minister, Mohammed Massadegh [in nastavitvi saha Reze Pahlavija, op.pis.]. The Eisenhower Administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons; but the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs."

In kot rezultat tega in, od ZDA podprte brutalne domace tajne in varnostne policije SAVAK, ki je mucila nasprotnike rezima Pahlavija, je prislo do islamske revolucije.

In za konec, tukajle je zanimiva primerjava biblije in korana. Zakljucek:

A good argument could be made that either book is the most violent and cruel book ever written. The award would go to one or the other, for neither has any close competitors.

It is frightening to think that more than half of the world's population believes in one or the other.
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