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EM Drive

EM Drive

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vostok_1 ::

Zadeva si zasluži svojo temo.

Za začetek.
EmDrive @ Wikipedia

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1873...

and then

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140...

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi....

This paper describes the eight-day August 2013 test campaign designed to investigate and demonstrate viability of using classical magnetoplasmadynamics to obtain a propulsive momentum transfer via the quantum vacuum virtual plasma. This paper will not address the physics of the quantum vacuum plasma thruster, but instead will describe the test integration, test operations, and the results obtained from the test campaign. Approximately 30-50 micro-Newtons of thrust were recorded from an electric propulsion test article consisting primarily of a radio frequency (RF) resonant cavity excited at approximately 935 megahertz. Testing was performed on a low-thrust torsion pendulum that is capable of detecting force at a single-digit micronewton level, within a stainless steel vacuum chamber with the door closed but at ambient atmospheric pressure. Several different test configurations were used, including two different test articles as well as a reversal of the test article orientation. In addition, the test article was replaced by an RF load to verify that the force was not being generated by effects not associated with the test article. The two test articles were designed by Cannae LLC of Doylestown, Pennsylvania. The torsion pendulum was designed, built, and operated by Eagleworks Laboratories at the NASA Johnson Space Center of Houston, Texas. Approximately six days of test integration were required, followed by two days of test operations, during which, technical issues were discovered and resolved. Integration of the two test articles and their supporting equipment was performed in an iterative fashion between the test bench and the vacuum chamber. In other words, the test article was tested on the bench, then moved to the chamber, then moved back as needed to resolve issues. Manual frequency control was required throughout the test. Thrust was observed on both test articles, even though one of the test articles was designed with the expectation that it would not produce thrust. Specifically, one test article contained internal physical modifications that were designed to produce thrust, while the other did not (with the latter being referred to as the "null" test article). Test data gathered includes torsion pendulum displacement measurements which are used to calculate generated force, still imagery in the visible spectrum to document the physical configuration, still imagery in the infrared spectrum to characterize the thermal environment, and video imagery. Post-test data includes static and animated graphics produced during RF resonant cavity characterization using the COMSOL Multiphysics® software application. Excerpts from all of the above are included and discussed in this paper. Lessons learned from test integration and operations include identification of the need to replace manual control of the resonant cavity target frequency with an automated frequency control capability. Future test plans include the development of an automatic frequency control circuit. Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma. Future test plans include independent verification and validation at other test facilities.



Shit looks fucking REAL!
  • spremenil: vostok_1 ()

vostok_1 ::

Jaz sicer ne bi špekuliral točno kako dela oz. če uporablja "vesoljski eter" kot medij. If this is the case, potem imajo znanstveniki noro skrivnosten problem pred seboj.

Kakorkoli že...glede vesoljskih poletov pa bi bil to resnično warp drive. Specifični potisk je izredno velik glede na porabo. Ne potrebuje propelanta, kar je praktično največji problem vsega, ter zasnova je otročje preprosta. Medzvezdno potovanje sicer bo še vedno skrajno neprijetno, je pa za medplanetarne zadeve odlična stvar. Prav tako za satelite. Last but not least...izleti v orbito. V kombinaciji s scramjetom bi polet v vesolje pomenil malo bolj kompleksen izlet s potniškim letalom.

It's a big effin deal. Zaenkrat obstaja več prototipov. En privatni. En kitajski in par nasinih. Nekaj jih je še v izdelavi.

vostok_1 ::

Nikec3 ::

Malo sem prebral o temi, malo razumem veliko pa tudi ne. Predvsem je dejstvo, da:

1. Očitno stvar ni tako enostavna, kot jo nekateri tukaj želijo predstaviti, ker bi do sedaj v tem primeru tak pogon že obstajal.
2. Zakaj se do sedaj nihče ni resno s tem ukvarjal?
@WarpedOne o Elonu Musku:
"ST inteligenca serijskemu izdelovalcu "čudežev" očita pomanjkanje inteligence"

vostok_1 ::

Ne en en drugi ne ve, če je enostavna ali ne. Se bo vidlo s časom.
Sama inženirska zasnova prototipnih modelov pa je smešno enostavna.

Zakaj ni nihče? Ok. Imamo the usual teorije zarote, ampak IMO, je en pred finančno komisijo omenil, da zadeva ne more držat vode in takoj izgubila finance. Privat firme pa pomanjkanje financ. Ker namreč, dokler ne spraviš zadevo v orbito ti javnost ne bo vrjela.

Kakorkoli že. Uraden nasin članek je zunaj. Bo velik fail za naso, če se izkaže kot BS.

Grey ::

Ni BS, je resnično.

Vse efekte v zvoku in valovanju, ki jih poznamo v zraku, delujejo v EM mediju, Tesla je imel prav. Če potisk megafona (ali pa Helmholtzovega resonatorja) tvori 1 gram in turboreakcijski motor tvori 50 kN pri enakih dB, potem vemo da gledamo prav, a nismo še naredili motorja za galaktična potovanja. Priznanje delovanja tega pogona bo sprožilo holistično perspektivo na celotno zadevo glede Relativistične Teorije. Kasneje bo iz tega odkritja nastala Teorija Vsega (dejansko je potrebno samo poenotiti terminologijo na vseh nivojih in bo zadeva špilala).

jest10 ::

Dej se no malo ohladi s temi špekulacijami in pobožnimi željami.

Aston_11 ::

Spet smo pri skrivnostni snovi - etru, o katerem so nekdaj že špekulirali znanstveniki in bi bilo kar hecno, da bi se pokazalo, da so imeli prav. Hja, saj stvar se mora od nečesa odriniti, da se premika... dont šut mi.

Nikec3 je izjavil:

Malo sem prebral o temi, malo razumem veliko pa tudi ne. Predvsem je dejstvo, da:

1. Očitno stvar ni tako enostavna, kot jo nekateri tukaj želijo predstaviti, ker bi do sedaj v tem primeru tak pogon že obstajal.
2. Zakaj se do sedaj nihče ni resno s tem ukvarjal?

Kako veš, da ne obstaja in kako veš, da se s tem ni nihče resno ukvarjal? Imaš vpogled v vsako hišo, laboratorij, prostor na svetu, da lahko spostiš tako trditev iz sebe. IMO ni šans, da bi kompliciranost stvari izhajala iz trditev, ki s kompliciranostjo nimajo nobene zveze.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: Aston_11 ()

vostok_1 ::



lol

Loocas ::

Matev - najslabši troll vseh časov

vostok_1 ::

http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/08/full-n...

Nekaj se meša. Bo treba najbrž še mal počakat na nove teste.

smash ::

lahko tole kdo povzame bolj po domače v nekaj stavkih?

black ice ::

Eppur si muove :D

vostok_1 ::

Kinda :))

Brane22 ::

Tisot je precej sumljivo.

Sem postavil par očitnih vprašanj na tipovem sajtu z namenom naj ga da na f.a.q. pa doslej ni niti odgovora.

Evo kopije, če ma kdo idejo:
one or two more questions for FAQ list...


Hello,

I've read media reports and crtiques of EmDrive, which brought me to your page, where after scouring through FAQ I couldn't find answer to relatively simple question, that I think would interest many.

Question is, if forces with ordinary materials are marginal, and with superconducting materials can be many magnitudes higher:

- why is it taking so long for you to show with even a crude superconducting prototype that would demonstrate obviously visible effect ?

- there are many RF cavities around, some of the superconducting in laboratories around the world. Why hasn' through all these years someone noticed such effect ?

Thanks in advance

Brane22 ::

Dokaj skeptičen komentar tipa na G+

John Baez

vostok_1 ::

Jah, saj ne bom dal roke v ogenj. Ampak če se bo res izkazalo da deluje, bo pomojem princip delovanja smešno enostaven in ne neko kreganje z relativnostno teorijo. My 2 cents.

vostok_1 ::

Made in China.




NASA pa je zadevo spravila v vakumsko komoro, če prav berem. So pa kitajci uporabili konkretno večjo moč. skoraj desetinko G-ja so dobili, kar bi marsikatero napako dejansko zasenčilo.

P.S. Za občutek...luna ima gravitacijsko konstanto 1,6m/s^2. Torej kitajci so dobili skoraj polovico.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: vostok_1 ()

vostok_1 ::

Opomba: Da ne bo pomote...nisem 100% ali gre v videu za kitajsko verzjo ali od nekega privatnika.

trololo2 ::

vostok_1 je izjavil:

Opomba: Da ne bo pomote...nisem 100% ali gre v videu za kitajsko verzjo ali od nekega privatnika.


Also upload je star skoraj 7 let. Bi pričakoval nekaj napredka v takem času...

vostok_1 ::

trololo2 je izjavil:

vostok_1 je izjavil:

Opomba: Da ne bo pomote...nisem 100% ali gre v videu za kitajsko verzjo ali od nekega privatnika.


Also upload je star skoraj 7 let. Bi pričakoval nekaj napredka v takem času...


Chinese Northwestern Polytechnical University (NWPU)

In 2008, Wired magazine reported that a team of Chinese researchers led by Juan Yang (杨涓), professor of propulsion theory and engineering of aeronautics and astronautics at Northwestern Polytechnical University (NWPU) in Xi'an, claimed to have developed a valid electro-magnetic theory behind the Emdrive.[4][24] A demonstration version of the drive was built and tested under different cavity shapes and at higher power levels in 2010.[11] A maximum thrust of 720 mN was reported at 2500 W of input power on an aerospace engine test stand usually used to precisely test spacecraft engines like ion drives.[8][12][13][25]



EmDrive @ Wikipedia

vostok_1 ::

NASA plans to upgrade their equipment to higher power levels, use vacuum-capable RF amplifiers with power ranges of up to 125 W, and design a new tapered cavity analytically expected to produce thrust in the 0.1 N/kW range. Then, the test article will be shipped to other laboratories for independent verification and continued evaluations of the technology, at Glenn Research Center, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/EmDrive

Hmm. Sicer ni nova novica, ampak teh podatkov mislim, da nisem še zasledil. Skratka nov, večji prototip je v delu in bo poslan drugim uglednim ustanovam.

Agencija s takim track-record ne bi brezveze trošila denar za nekaj kar ne bi sploh kazalo rezultatov. Nekaj jih je prepričalo očitno.

Universe...here we come. ;)

Loocas ::

Matev - najslabši troll vseh časov

vostok_1 ::

Interesting, but right now i really don't give a shit how this works. Ampak dajte ga že enkrat uradno in nedvoumno stestirat. Z teorijo naj se kasneje ukvarjajo.

Loocas ::

Matev - najslabši troll vseh časov

Grey ::

A si bodo sedaj končno priznali, da eter obstaja? :D

vostok_1 ::

Sem reku da moram se mal pozanimat. Da preberem članek prvo.

vostok_1 ::

The Eagleworks Lab is still working on the copper frustum thruster that was reported on last summer at the AIAA/JPC. We have now confirmed that there is a thrust signature in a hard vacuum (~5.0x10^-6 Torr) in both the forward direction, (approx. +50 micro-Newton (uN) with 50W at 1,937.115 MHz), and the reversed direction, (up to -16uN with a failing RF amp), when the thruster is rotated 180 degrees on the torque pendulum.


This package also allows one to calculate the expected thrust for a given input power and quality factor of the frustum resonant cavity based of standard plasma rocket physics. So far the estimated thrust verses experimental observations are within 2% for the first experimental data run I compared it to, but we still have a long, long road ahead of us of experimental validation before we have any real confidence in this very new Q-Thruster design tool.


-NASA guy

34uN neto potiska. Pa še nek software model so naredili.

This time it's quite serious. Terraformed Mars...here we come.
Oh...and fuck you ion thruster. ;)

To bo taka revolucija v space propulsion tehnologiji...like i've said, the best thing aside from warp drive. Za potovat po vesolju zgolj uporaba energije in ničesar drugega.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: vostok_1 ()

Loocas ::

pa to:
"... Experimental data like what just came out of the Eagleworks Lab's latest warp-field interferometer tests based on 27,000, 1.5 second long on/off data samples that indicates we have finally observed the first spacetime contraction effects that we are fairly confident are the real deal. We again are looking for more possible false positives as well as ways of increasing the signal to noise ratio above its current ~2-to-3 sigma level ..."
Matev - najslabši troll vseh časov

SimplyMiha ::

vostok_1 ::

Stara novica. To je ravno od preteklega poletja, ko so preizkusili prvi prototip. Trenutno, delajo na drugih.

SimplyMiha ::

Pa res, šele zdaj sem videl datum: 31 July 14
Se opravičujem, očitno folk rad forsira stare novice in jih senzacionalizira. In jaz bedak nasedem.

vostok_1 ::

No sej, ene novice imajo tudi daljši rok trajanja, tk da. Mene bolj živcira ker vse to gre tako počasi pri testiranju. Najbrž namenoma...tko imajo razlog za vlečenje plače.

SimplyMiha ::

No, da se odkupim, tale je pa aktualen (sveže objavljeno danes!):
Evaluating NASA's Futuristic EM Drive
A group at NASA's Johnson Space Center has successfully tested an electromagnetic (EM) propulsion drive in a vacuum - a major breakthrough for a multi-year international effort comprising several competing research teams.


Zgleda, da je EM drive vendarle nekaj več od fikcije!

SimplyMiha ::

Najbolj zanimivo pri vsem tem pa je, da imajo vidne rezultate, nihče pa ne zna pojasniti, kako prihaja do tega. Očitno je naša fizikalna teorija dokaj luknjičava.

Praviloma od teorije preidemo v prakso, tokrat pa je ravno obratno.

vostok_1 ::

To pa je novica ja!

Remember this moment guys. Odkrili smo warp drive našega časa, in časa še kar nekaj generacij po tem.

Ne gre bolj preprosto kot streljat EM valove v bakreno komoro.


Nekaj highlightov novice.

However, Paul March, an engineer at NASA Eagleworks, recently reported in NASASpaceFlight.com's forum (on a thread now over 500,000 views) that NASA has successfully tested their EM Drive in a hard vacuum - the first time any organization has reported such a successful test.


To this end, NASA Eagleworks has now nullified the prevailing hypothesis that thrust measurements were due to thermal convection.


The NASASpaceflight.com group has given consideration to whether the experimental measurements of thrust force were the result of an artifact. Despite considerable effort within the NASASpaceflight.com forum to dismiss the reported thrust as an artifact, the EM Drive results have yet to be falsified.

After consistent reports of thrust measurements from EM Drive experiments in the US, UK, and China - at thrust levels several thousand times in excess of a photon rocket, and now under hard vacuum conditions


If such a similar vehicle were equipped with an EM Drive, it could enable travel from the surface of Earth to the surface of the moon within four hours.


With this design, a mission to Mars would result in a 70-day transit from Earth to the red planet, a 90-day stay at Mars, and then another 70-day return transit to Earth.


"While the fast Mars transits that Q-Thruster technology [EM drive] could enable would be revolutionary, the independence from the limitations of departure and arrival windows may ultimately be more so," added Mr. Joosten and Dr. White.

This means that an EM drive ship mission could be designed without consideration of the every-two-year interplanetary conjunction launch windows that currently govern Earth-Mars transit missions and could help stabilize and provide more routine Mars crew rotation timetables.


Mr. Joosten and Dr. White stated that "a one-way, non-decelerating trip to Alpha Centauri under a constant one milli-g acceleration" from an EM drive would result in an arrival speed of 9.4 percent the speed of light and result in a total transit time from Earth to Alpha Centauri of just 92 years.


Zaenkrat mamo štiri teste. Vsi so pokazali pozitivni rezultat, zadnja dva pa sta še posebej pomembna, ker jih je naredila organizacija z imenom in v pravih pogojih. Naslednji še prihajajo.
Kot rečeno...kombinacija tega plus Muskov Falcon reusable rocket in bo sončev sistem to kar je bila Amerika Kolumbu. Sicer ne vem točno kaj bi z njim počeli...but why the fuck not.

Prenosni jedrski reaktorji pa so že stara zadeva. Tk, da vsa tehnologija je tu. Sam še smisel in denar rabimo. ;)

SimplyMiha ::

Q. How can the EmDrive produce enough thrust for terrestrial applications?
A. The second generation engines will be capable of producing a specific thrust of 30kN/kW. Thus for 1 kilowatt (typical of the power in a microwave oven) a static thrust of 3 tonnes can be obtained, which is enough to support a large car. This is clearly adequate for terrestrial transport applications.
The static thrust/power ratio is calculated assuming a superconducting EmDrive with a Q of 5 x 109. This Q value is routinely achieved in superconducting cavities.
Note however, because the EmDrive obeys the law of conservation of energy, this thrust/power ratio rapidly decreases if the EmDrive is used to accelerate the vehicle along the thrust vector. (See Equation 16 of the theory paper). Whilst the EmDrive can provide lift to counter gravity, (and is therefore not losing kinetic energy), auxiliary propulsion is required to provide the kinetic energy to accelerate the vehicle.

http://emdrive.com/faq.html

Leteči avto. No, do tega je še daleč (superprevodniki...)

Zgodovina sprememb…

vostok_1 ::

Nah. To so zaenkrat bolj bullshit ideje. To ni učinkovita stvar za terestrične zadeve oz. so druge tehnologije bistveno bolj primerne.

100g/kW dviga...rabil bi 100kW generator za dvignit 10kg. Za dvignit lahek avto bi rabil 5MW generator. Skratka...idjotizem.

Za vesolje pa je to kot naročeno. Prenosni megavatni generatorji se že dalj časa uporabljajo na podmornicah.

msjr ::

Hu ha 5MW generator je kar velika zadeva (gl. sliko). Ampak kljub vsemu ni treba rečt idiotizem, kvečejmu za sedaj neizvedljivo.

5MW Generator

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • zavarovalo slike: gzibret ()

Starodavni ::

ja samo, podmornice imajo tudi jedrske generatorje in so ravno prav veliki, da poganjajo podmornico. To tehnologijo uporabi za kakšno veliko vesoljsko ladjo, ki bo sposobna tovoriti več tovora in se jo bo večkrat uporabilo.

Namesto rakete, kot je Apollo, ki so velike, rabijo veliko goriva in prinesejo manj tovora.

Pač če bo volja in interes se bo jedrske reaktorje iz podmornic preneslo na vesoljske ladje in bodo potovale po osončju, namesto pod morjem.

Samo jaz bom čakal, dokler ne bodo lansirali kakšen prototip sonde, ki bo dokazala, da lahko potuje hitreje kot prej in pride do lune v 4 urah.

Trenutno je vse samo še v testiranjih, da izključijo vplive na to stvar.

WarpedGone ::

100g/kW dviga...rabil bi 100kW generator za dvignit 10kg. Za dvignit lahek avto bi rabil 5MW generator. Skratka...idjotizem.

Dokler je samo eksperiment brez teoretične podlage, je vse skup tipanje v temi.
Ko bo trdna teorija zadaj, se odpre prostor za optimizacijo.
Bi bil zelo presenečeno če smo s čistim ugibanjem odkrili max možen efekt na vložen kW.
Zbogom in hvala za vse ribe

vostok_1 ::

Jz osebno, v bližnji prihodnosti te tehnologije niti slučajno ne vidim uporabljene za terestrične namene. Za polete v vesolje bodo rakete še kar nekaj časa v uporabi. Tu bo pač Musk prednjačil oz. naredil breaktrough.

EM tehnologija bo odprla sončni sistem, vsaj notranjega, že v naši generaciji.

Osebno vidim specializirane vesoljske vlačilce, ki prevažajo tako sonde kot tovor nazaj pa naprej v notranjem sončnem sistemu.
Najprej treba vzpostavit zanesljiv comm link vse do asteroidnega pasu. Nato se pošlje tam surveying sonde, ki bodo iskale asteroide bogate z redkimi zemljinami in žlahtnimi kovinami. Vlačilec se bo gor pripopal ter zvlekel zadevo do earth orbit, kjer bo nato z kontrolirano trajektorjo strmoglavilo v kak plitek del oceana.

Actually...nevermind...stupid idea.

Kot drugo bo s tem teraforming marsa praktično mala malica. Avtomatizirani sistemi, ki bodo konstantno strmoglavljali plinsko bogate asteroide na površje marsa. Enih 50 dronov bi vsako leto lahko dostavilo 100 in več, desetmeterskih asteroidov do marsa. Po par desetletjih bi se pomojem že nekaj poznalo.
5MW generator bi produciral "500kg" potiska, kar je IMO čisto dovolj za konkretno deviacijo enkega asteroida.


Skratka, zadeva je obvious game-changer. Do sedaj, je bila vsa debata, kako spravit gor dovolj reakcijske mase in jo čimboljše izkoristit. Sedaj bo le vprašanje, kako spravit en jedrski generator gor v vesolje. Mehanizem thrusterja pa je itak tako smešen, da ga lahko DIY.
Bolj me zanima kako se zadeva obnese termično po daljšem poganjanju. Ali pride do kakega pregrevanja, erozije materiala itd. Spravit več kW v eno komoro z nekim dielektrikom notri najbrž ima svoje posledice.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: vostok_1 ()

vostok_1 ::

There is one joker in the pack. It seems force produced falls as the payload accelerates, so this is an engine with a "top speed" limit. It's not clear to me how high that limit is.


No zgleda, pa da res ni vse rožnato. Ampak still. Če je zgornja meja dovolj visoka potem kul. Zunanji solar system bo sicer še vedno bolj domena raziskovalcev in extreme turistov.

A mislite, da bi crowdfunding uspel zmigat tiste kekce pri NASI? Namreč, pomojem bi se kak miljonček hitro nabral. Sam na NSF forumih je 500,000 ogledov. Vsak daruje 1$ in so dobri za naslednje leto.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: vostok_1 ()

vostok_1 ::

PS.



Hmm...da ne bo to tko kot sem rekel že v začetku. Eni pravijo, da gre za neko interakcijo etra, space/time whatever. Izkazalo pa se bo, da v resnici se EM valovi od ene stene odbijajo in potiskajo sondo, na drugi strani pa se vpijajo v dielektrik. Ta pa se segreva. To bi recimo štimalo. Bi pa pomenilo drugo...da se na drugi strani preostala energija vpija in bi blo treba to snov hladit.

Morda bo res nekaj banalnega.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • zavarovalo slike: gzibret ()

SimplyMiha ::

Hm, vlačilec kaj? Očitno bomo hkrati dobili tudi prve "zvezdne rušilce", ker ni nobenega zagotovila, da ne bomo od kakega vlačilca, ki se je ravno pripopal na milijontonski asteroid, slišali "Allahu Akbar!".

Aston_11 ::

Grey je izjavil:

A si bodo sedaj končno priznali, da eter obstaja? :D

Normalno. Telo se mora od nečesa odrivat, da gre naprej :D

Nikec3 ::

@WarpedOne o Elonu Musku:
"ST inteligenca serijskemu izdelovalcu "čudežev" očita pomanjkanje inteligence"

SimplyMiha ::


En romunski znanstvenik je naredil delujoč EM pogon... oz. vsaj tako trdi.

Še njegova spletna stran:
http://www.masinaelectrica.com/emdrive-...

Zgodovina sprememb…

Nikec3 ::

Malo morgen.

Če poskušam res zelo poenostaviti ta pogon, je nekje približno okrog mikrovalovke, s specifično obliko?
@WarpedOne o Elonu Musku:
"ST inteligenca serijskemu izdelovalcu "čudežev" očita pomanjkanje inteligence"

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: Nikec3 ()

SimplyMiha ::

Uporabljeni so bili deli iz mikrovalovki, ja. Saj je vse razloženo na spletni strani, vsa matematika pa je že narejena na NasaSpaceFlight forumu. Vsakdo z malo elektroinženirske žilice se lahko loti tega poskusa.

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