Afera Lipa German style: 19 mrtvih, 300 ranjenih

in od česa točno človek umre v takih stampedih?

ja ce ti nekdo na faco/vrat/prsni kos/itd stopi pa zlomi, tezko da bos prezivel ko se kar ne neha hoja preko tebe, ne?

Me prav zanima, kaj bo pokazala njihova preiskava, kje da so ga polomili. Zelo nenavadno mi je, da se kaj takega zgodi v Nemciji, kjer te zadeve predvidijo in preucijo bolj kot smo vajeni pri nas.

Med zrtvami baje ni Slovencev (moja prijateljica je imela mlajšo sestro tam, tako, da smo skušali - večinoma zaman - kaj poizvedeti, vendar se je potem koncno javila).

Ko pa berem druge slovenske forume, pa vec ne vem, kaj naj si mislim o slovenski druzbi - dokler so vsi mislili, da gre za parado ponosa, se je nekaterim to ne samo zdelo kul, ampak so bili celo privoscljivi.

Na masovnih prireditvah je naglica čakajočih za vstop default, tako da je to IMO bolj izgovor, ki pa upam v Nemciji ne bo zalegel.

@opeter...mislim kake klatis... ker valda ti mas kontrolo nad svojim telesom, ko te masa ljudi poriva, ne?
si bil kdaj na kakem vecjem koncertu?

opeter je 25. jul 2010 ob 13:47 izjavil:

Dejansko bi morali tiste, ki so druge poteptali, kaznovati. Tudi organizatorje.
Samo kako prikažeš, da je bil on/ona tisti, ki mu je stopil/a na čreva?

lol opter. zadaj nate pritiska 500 ljudi, ti pa seveda kot korenjak boš use zadržal...

Kolikor se spomnim so v Berlinu love parade odpovedali, ker je mesto v strahu za škodo naložilo organizatorjem, da morajo prizorišče parade ograditi z ograjam.

Ni nujno, da je kriv organizator,... lahko da je to župan.

Raja je neumna kakor hlod.

Neke podobne izkušnje sem že imel in sicer v veliko manjši množici najstnic in najstnikov. Ena punca je bila čisto stisnjena, rdeča v obraz in dehidrirana. Take stvari se dogajajo zato, ker ljudje ne razmišljajo z glavo! Njihovo obnašanje je podobno večjemu številu goveda.

Res čakam dan, ko bom nekoč srečal večjo skupino inteligentnih ljudi, ki imajo čut do sočloveka.

Zaradi takih ljudi (ki ne razmišljajo s svojo glavo) demokracija šepa, ker dejansko s svojim načinom obnašanja kličejo po avtoriteti, ki potem posledično zlorablja moč.

Ampak v tem primeru je najbolje počakati na uradno ugotovitev, kaj je šlo narobe.

Seveda sem posplošil in nisem namigoval, da je SAMO TO... Tu na forumu pa ne morem pisat 10 strani dolge študije...

Če pripravljaš zabavo za poldrugi milijon ljudi, preprosto ne moreš predvideti vsega. Je preveč stvari, ki gredo lahko narobe in vsake toliko časa bo katera od njih tudi šla narobe.

O.

Glej še na FIFA WC v afriki se je nekdo prikradel do zlatega kipca, pa so imeli vse dosti bolj zavarovano. Kaj šele kakšna kraja umetnin v stilu misije nemogoče.

Tako da organizator lahko malce predvidi 10-20 scenarijev, ampak ker smo ljudje kompleksna bitja je lahko miljon scenarijev kaj vse lahko gre narobe.

Krivca po mojem javno ne bodo označili, ker se gre za panično nesrečo. Omejiti kaj takega je pa ednino možno z posebno policijo ali vojsko, vodnimi topovi, ščiti, pendreki...

Kaj pa če bi mogoče počakali, da slišimo, kaj imajo o tem povedati ljudje, ki so dejansko fizično preiskali kraj stampeda in zaslišali udeležence? Ter šele na to postavljamo svoje (končne) sodbe?

Omejiti kaj takega je pa ednino možno z posebno policijo ali vojsko, vodnimi topovi, ščiti, pendreki...
če je to potrebno, pač to storiš...

Hmnja:

The parade area reportedly had become overcrowded and police at the entrance began announcing over loudspeakers that new arrivals should turn around and head back.[2][3] The side of the tunnel that was the entry of the parade area was closed, but people continued to enter the tunnel from the rear, despite being told it was closed. A stampede occurred as the tunnel became overcrowded.[7]

Še tako ugledna, kulturna in izobražena množica samih nam podobnih slo-techarjev bo hodila naprej in nevede potiskala in tako bila udeležena pri tragediji, ki se dogaja 500m naprej po toku.

Pa naj bodo to rejvarji, metal kampovci, obiskovalci papeža, geji/lezbike, romarji v meko ali slo-techarji (da jih je en miljon, ki jih pošlješ po čopovi do prešerca, kjer koker še eno uro delijo zastonj iphone/HTCje ).

Kriviti neumno/nemoralno/zadeto/fanatično množico je najmanj neodgovorno in ne naredi ničesar, da se takšna stvar prepreči.

Lion29 je 25. jul 2010 ob 22:56 izjavil:

po bitiki s(m)o vsi generali

boš rekel, da je stampedo množice, stvar, za katero rabiš diplomo, da predhodno veš, da se lahko zgodi?
oz. ali se je prvič zgodilo kaj takega?


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

nop, samo ta en vhod je bil... profiji a?

Vsak dan umre na svetu 150.000 do 200.000 ljudi. Vsak mesec okoli 5 milijonov. V novicah pristane mogoče ena stotina promila teh ljudi. Nekaj za razmišljat :)

A bejz no!

Daj preberi si malo http://www.crowdsafe.com/FruinCauses.pdf potem pa govori taksne neumnosti.

Funeral Procession
Untold hundreds, and possibly thousands, were killed in Moscow, Russia during a massive
procession of 3 million people viewing the body of Joseph Stalin after his death in 1953. Army
tanks and trucks to control movement of the crowd blocked side streets along the route to
Stalin's bier. Police and military, some on horseback, beat people with clubs to further control the
crowd, even as people were fatally crushed against building walls, the parked tanks and trucks.
Horses were lifted off their feet by crowd surges, and also crushed to death. [2]

Riot
In 1985 a riot by English and Italian fans in the stands at a European Cup final at Heysel
Stadium in Brussels, Belgium precipitated a flight of spectators that resulted in 38 deaths by
asphyxia and 437 injured.

Weather
In 1988 more than 100 persons died and 700 others were injured at Nepal's National
Stadium in Katmandu. A sudden violent hailstorm caused 30,000 spectators to flee the open
grandstand but found the exit gates were locked.

Religious Events
In 1990, 1426 people were killed in a crowd crush during the annual pilgrimage of 2
million at Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The crush occurred in a 500 m long tunnel joining Mecca and
the Tent City of Mina. Temperatures at the time were 44 deg. C outside the air-conditioned
tunnel. It is speculated that someone fell in the tunnel blocking movement.
In 1986, 46 pilgrims died in Hardwar, India on a crowded bridge across the Ganges River.
At the 12-year cycle of the Khumb Mela festival as many as 4 million Hindus gather to bathe in
the Ganges. During the 1980 world tour of the Pope, 13 people were killed in two African cities in
crowd rushes.

Power Failure
In 1981 45 persons died 27 of them children, in the Quitab Minar tower, New New Delhi,
India. The 800-year-old tower is a popular tourist attraction and museum. A blackout, combined
with what some witnesses said were cries that the tower was falling, triggered a sudden exodus
of 300 to 400 people.

A to so bili tudi narkomani?!!

Zakljucek citiranega teksta:

CONCLUSIONS
The crowd incident model and its derivative guidelines show that many crowd disasters
could have been avoided by simple advance planning and management techniques. Reliable
real-time communication between those responsible for crowd management, and authoritative
communication with the crowd, are also critical elements in defusing a potentially lethal crowd
incident. These strategies are also the least costly means of preventing crowd disasters.
The Certified Crowd Manager
Crowd managers have an awesome responsibility for the safety of large numbers of
people. Yet there is little formalized training in crowd management principles and techniques.
Police training focuses on crowd control, and not generally on crowd management. It is
recommended that every venue accommodating more than 500 persons be required by law to
have a certified crowd manager on staff. In order to become certified the candidate would
undergo formalized testing on the basics of crowd management and handling of emergencies.

Kakorkoli obrnes, tega incidenta ne mores naprtiti udelezencem, temvec so pac zaj****i organizatorji, plain and simple.

JanK: Povedati sem hotel, da narkomani(nakrizirani-naspidirani-tripirani:)) povečujejo možnost za take primere. Daš 2 Horserja v avto, pa ti ga zažgeta :D

Premalo je bilo zagotovljene varnosti, premajhno prizorisce..prijavljena je bila prireditev za samo 250.000 ljudi..Ni čudno, da so župana mesta obmetavali z jajci. Krivi so odgovorni.

groza!
prava groza poslusat te krike.... jaz si ne morem predstavljat kako sepocutis cito nemocnega ko te stiska skup tisoce in tisoce ljudi

čim močnejši si tembolj lahko odrineš ljudi od sebe, da lahko dihaš. s tem pa seveda še bolj stisneš bolj šibke. ni tako nevarna milijonska množica kot to, da hočejo ljudje na silo nekam priti. ker 15 metrov stran od placa, kjer se je to dogajalo naj bi bilo v tem času še veliko prostora: http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/2010/07/28...