Osnove programiranja za Telebane

WarpedGone je 17. nov 2015 ob 12:25 izjavil:

Takole zgleda fejl učenja programiranja v 2015.

v temo pa se oglašam z namenom da izvem kaj bi lahko naštimal bratu (6r oš) kateri tudi kaže malo zanimanja za take zadeve

mali zaj programira lučke na ardunotu bi pa rad počel še kaj na pravem računalniku.

 [ This program prints "Hello World!" and a newline to the screen, its length is 106 active command characters. [It is not the shortest.]
  This loop is a "comment loop", a simple way of adding a comment to a BF program such that you don't have to worry about any command
  characters. Any ".", ",", "+", "-", "<" and ">" characters are simply ignored, the "[" and "]" characters just have to be balanced. This
  loop and the commands it contains are ignored because the current cell defaults to a value of 0; the 0 value causes this loop to be skipped.
]
+++++ +++               Set Cell #0 to 8
[
    >++++               Add 4 to Cell #1; this will always set Cell #1 to 4
    [                   as the cell will be cleared by the loop
        >++             Add 2 to Cell #2
        >+++            Add 3 to Cell #3
        >+++            Add 3 to Cell #4
        >+              Add 1 to Cell #5
        <<<<-           Decrement the loop counter in Cell #1
    ]                   Loop till Cell #1 is zero; number of iterations is 4
    >+                  Add 1 to Cell #2
    >+                  Add 1 to Cell #3
    >-                  Subtract 1 from Cell #4
    >>+                 Add 1 to Cell #6
    [<]                 Move back to the first zero cell you find; this will
                        be Cell #1 which was cleared by the previous loop
    <-                  Decrement the loop Counter in Cell #0
]                       Loop till Cell #0 is zero; number of iterations is 8

>>.                     Cell #2 has value 72 which is 'H'
>---.                   Subtract 3 from Cell #3 to get 101 which is 'e'
+++++++..+++.           Likewise for 'llo' from Cell #3
>>.                     Cell #5 is 32 for the space
<-.                     Subtract 1 from Cell #4 for 87 to give a 'W'
<.                      Cell #3 was set to 'o' from the end of 'Hello'
+++.------.--------.    Cell #3 for 'rl' and 'd'
>>+.                    Add 1 to Cell #5 gives us an exclamation point
>++.                    And finally a newline from Cell #6

Tako, da ali se ukvarjas z nevsecnostmi real world jezikov ali pa uporabljas jezik, ki je tako preprost, da nima uporabne vrednosti.

WarpedGone je 17. nov 2015 ob 15:33 izjavil:

Tako, da ali se ukvarjas z nevsecnostmi real world jezikov ali pa uporabljas jezik, ki je tako preprost, da nima uporabne vrednosti.

Šure.
Ampak kaj je pol profit pythona, da se ga tako pusha kot 'super kandidata' za učenje?
Design zafukov ima cel kup, tko da zakaj python in zakaj ne C?

Čisto navadna moda.

About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

Najbolj se ti splača naučit C#. Razlogi:
1. Očitno je tak jezik najbolj dovršen, ki ga uporablja največ ljudi.
2. Lažje dobit službo.
3. Postaneš stručnjak v njem, če ga boš uporabljal veliko let.
4. Imaš največ primerov rešenih na internetnih straneh, kot je stackoverflow.com, kar zelo prav pride, ko iščeš po googlu kakšen problem in lahko rešitev od drugih ljudi uporabiš, namesto da sam zgubljaš čas. Tudi največ raznih knjižnic ima tak jezik, npr rabiš code editor knjižnico za svoj program, največja možnost je, da jo boš našel v c#.
5. Je microsoftov izdelek, ki so najbolj kvalitetni po moje, Visual Studio IDE je kvaliteten.

Seveda pa je nujno, da se bolj podrobno naučiš, kaj se dogaja zadaj v teh interpretiranih jezikih, ker boš kar pogosto naletel na to, da boš moral narediti kaj bolj low level tudi s high level jezikom. Za to pa se je skoraj nujno naučit C/C++, tudi aassembler bi bil koristen naučit se za teorijo, če te res zanima.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

Najbolj se ti splača naučit C#. Razlogi:
1. Očitno je tak jezik najbolj dovršen, ki ga uporablja največ ljudi.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

2. Lažje dobit službo.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

3. Postaneš stručnjak v njem, če ga boš uporabljal veliko let.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

4. Imaš največ primerov rešenih na internetnih straneh, kot je stackoverflow.com, kar zelo prav pride, ko iščeš po googlu kakšen problem in lahko rešitev od drugih ljudi uporabiš, namesto da sam zgubljaš čas. Tudi največ raznih knjižnic ima tak jezik, npr rabiš code editor knjižnico za svoj program, največja možnost je, da jo boš našel v c#.

kuall je 25. nov 2015 ob 01:46 izjavil:

Spura je 23. nov 2015 ob 22:24 izjavil:

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

Najbolj se ti splača naučit C#. Razlogi:
1. Očitno je tak jezik najbolj dovršen, ki ga uporablja največ ljudi.

Ce pustimo ob strani, da nisi utemeljil zakaj je najbolj popularen jezik najboljsi, tudi po tvojem lastnem kriteriju C# ni najboljsi, ker ni najbolj uporabljan.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

2. Lažje dobit službo.

Lazje kot kaj? Sluzbo je trivialno dobit s katerimkoli top 5 najbolj popularnim jezikom.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

3. Postaneš stručnjak v njem, če ga boš uporabljal veliko let.

To velja za vse jezike.

kuall je 22. nov 2015 ob 01:22 izjavil:

4. Imaš največ primerov rešenih na internetnih straneh, kot je stackoverflow.com, kar zelo prav pride, ko iščeš po googlu kakšen problem in lahko rešitev od drugih ljudi uporabiš, namesto da sam zgubljaš čas. Tudi največ raznih knjižnic ima tak jezik, npr rabiš code editor knjižnico za svoj program, največja možnost je, da jo boš našel v c#.

Na stack overflowu je na tretjem mestu, torej spet govoris stvari, ki niso res. Da ima najvec knjiznjic dvomim, vsekakor je pa na tebi, da to dokazes.

Ne recem, da je slab jezik, ampak ce argumentiras bi lahko dal argumente, ki so dejansko resnicni.

Nobena od mojih naštetih točk ne naredi C# "najboljši jezik", ga pa naredi kombinacija vseh naštetih točk najboljšega.

Lažje dobiš službo, če zelo dobro poznaš 1 jezik in glede na to, da je C# dober jezik je moj nasvet, da kar takoj od prvega dne začne s C#, ne pa tako kot eni svetujejo, da naj najprej c++ in potem preide na drugega, to je brezveze po moje. Kar C# takoj, saj se vsi strinjamo, da je glavno osvojit abstraktne tehnike programiranje , ne pa sintaksa enega jezika. Novega jezika naučit se ni noben problem. Jaz grem kar takoj lahko pisat program v novem jeziku, v katerem nisem še nikoli programiral, brez da bi se ga sploh učil. Naučiš se mimgrede novega jezika, ko enkrat znaš enega, v resnici so si vsi zelo podobni.

Pozabil sem še to, da je najbolj intuitiven jezik in ti tako prihrani dragocen čas in živce. Python, delphi in podobno je že bolj čudaško sintaksa, vsaj za moje pojme.

Na stackoverflow C# res najbrž ni na prvem mestu, tosem res površno napisal, da ima "največ" primerov na internetu. Ampak če všteješ še Visual basic primere, ki je zelo podoben C# (obstajajo avtomatični prevajalniki iz enega v drugega, ki delujejo skoraj 100%) potem bi skorajda ta moja trditev bila resnična.

what people “want” is a function of what they learn is available. e.g., do Americans want three-ring binders, and Europeans four-ring binders? or do they want binders and take whatever number of holes they come with? or do they want something that can help them organize their papers and take whatever is available? or do they really want a less cluttered office and ease of storage and retrieval of the information they receive? so, did people really _want_ three-ring binders, or is that just what they could buy? …look at Microsoft. nobody in their right mind would want their buggy shit. what Microshit users want is something entirely separate from the products. Microshit is _not_ user-friendly, but it is marketed as user-friendly, and then other software products, far more user-friendly, are made to look as if they missed the whole point about what “user-friendly” _is_, namely to look cool in nice colors while you’re crashing and destroying the disk, importing a virus from a disk, or letting Word destroy your day’s work.

why are we even _thinking_ about home computer equipment when we wish to attract professional programmers? in _every_ field I know, the difference between the professional and the mass market is so large that Joe Blow wouldn’t believe the two could coexist. more often than not, you can’t even get the professional quality unless you sign a major agreement with the vendor — such is the investment on both sides of the table. the commitment for over-the-counter sales to some anonymous customer is _negligible_. consumers are protected by laws because of this, while professionals are protected by signed agreements they are expected to understand. the software industry should surely be no different. (except, of course, that software consumers are denied every consumer right they have had recognized in any other field.) …they don’t make poles long enough for me want to touch Microsoft products, and I don’t want any mass-marketed game-playing device or Windows appliance _near_ my desk or on my network. this is my _workbench_, dammit, it’s not a pretty box to impress people with graphics and sounds. when I work at this system up to 12 hours a day, I’m profoundly uninterested in what user interface a novice user would prefer.

There is a simple and elegant answer to this question: Just learn Common Lisp well first. New languages are exciting to people who know mostly new languages, so learn an old language before you learn new ones and get out of the maelstrom that will drown you in ever new languages that add nothing at all except some miniscule additional feature from another language that someone needed to make a whole new language to implement because he did not know (Common) Lisp to begin with. A “new” language that differs from the rest of the crop by one or a couple features is proof positive that both what it came from and what it has become are mutations about to die. There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of such “languages” that people have invented over the years, for all sorts of weird purposes where they just could not use whatever language they were already using, could not extend it, and could not fathom how to modify its tools without making a whole new language. They never stopped to think about how horribly wasteful this is, they just went on to create yet another language called Dodo, the Titanic, Edsel, Kyoto-agreement…

something important happens when a previously privileged position in society suddenly sees incredibly demand that needs to be filled, using enormous quantities of manpower. that happened to programming computers about a decade ago, or maybe two. first, the people will no longer be super dedicated people, and they won’t be as skilled or even as smart — what was once dedication is replaced by greed and sometimes sheer need as the motivation to enter the field. second, an unskilled labor force will want job security more than intellectual challenges (to some the very antithesis of job security). third, managing an unskilled labor force means easy access to people who are skilled in whatever is needed right now, not an investment in people — which leads to the conclusion that a programmer is only as valuable as his ability to get another job fast. fourth, when mass markets develop, pluralism suffers the most — there is no longer a concept of healthy participants: people become concerned with the individual “winner”, and instead of people being good at whatever they are doing and proud of that, they will want to flock around the winner to share some of the glory.

neurosurgery is another field that requires an actual investment and lots of dedication to get into, is really rewarding to those who get good at it, but whose jobs are not advertised in regular newspapers. there is a shortage of neurosurgeons, but very little advertising in the media that the patients read. programming is both similar and different. whether you are a user or a programmer these days is often hard to tell (this has good qualities to it, too), but some programming tasks are still reserved to highly skilled people who are not afraid to take huge risks. ignoring for a moment the power of the American Medical Association, we still wouldn’t see a huge amount of books on neurosurgery for dummies in 21 days or whatever. it’s just plain inappropriate, and it’s intentionally out of people’s reach.
Lisp is somewhat like that. people can get lots of medicines at the drugstore, but they can’t be trusted to carve out a malignant tumor in their child’s brain. all sorts of users can do lots of customization and cool stuff in their “apps”, but they really can’t be trusted to run actual flight control systems, configure the telephone network, write software for video-synchronized magnetic-resonance imaging for brain surgery, or write automated stock-trading systems. at some point, the risk of letting unskilled people do the task becomes too high. that’s when you can’t trust more than 1% of the programmers out there, and a surprisingly large number of them know and use Lisp and tools that are can be trusted. (consider an ATM that gets one of those frequent Windows crashes, or a naval warfare vessel that has to cold-boot because a certain display suddenly goes all blue, or any other story in comp.risks that would have been hilarious if it had been a joke.)

Using such inferior languages is like asking a chef who could have done wonders with any kind of raw materials, to use a dirty kitchen, a broken refrigerator with food that is about to die a second time, broken tools, and brownish tap water that tasted of swamp land. His first task would be to clean up the place. Creating food in there would be the furthest from his mind. That’s how I feel about Perl and C++. I prefer to call it “good taste”, not “tunnel vision”. I don’t like rap, either. Call me intolerant.

kuall je 25. nov 2015 ob 03:37 izjavil:

A zdaj hočeš, da debatiram z neznanimi avtorji teh tvojih prekopiranih tekstov?
A znaš kakšen svoj argument napisat ali samo kopirat tekste od drugih ljudi brez navedbe vira in metat žaljivke okrog? Oboje ni sprejemljivo družbeno obnašanje, če še ne veš. To ni 24 ur forum, malo bolj civilizirani pa le smo tukaj se mi zdi.

kuall je 25. nov 2015 ob 03:37 izjavil:

A zdaj hočeš, da debatiram z neznanimi avtorji teh tvojih prekopiranih tekstov?
A znaš kakšen svoj argument napisat ali samo kopirat tekste od drugih ljudi brez navedbe vira in metat žaljivke okrog? Oboje ni sprejemljivo družbeno obnašanje, če še ne veš. To ni 24 ur forum, malo bolj civilizirani pa le smo tukaj se mi zdi.

Invictus je 25. nov 2015 ob 07:54 izjavil:

To, da znaš nek jezik, je približno 5% potrebnega znanja.