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Strmoglavil malezijski 777 v Ukrajini

Strmoglavil malezijski 777 v Ukrajini

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Pac-Man ::

SIS je jasen - buk je dostavila ruska vojska. Zdaj pa lažejo.

https://twitter.com/josephfcox/status/9...

SIS says "we know beyond any reasonable doubt that they Russian military supplied and subsequently recovered the missile launcher" used to down flight MH-17
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

53. brigada zračne obrambe iz Kurska ima povsem nov Buk s taktično oznako 332. Buk-M3 TEL.

Le kaj se je zgodilo s starim?

https://twitter.com/sl0zhny/status/9592...

Now Buk 332 of Russia's 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade is Buk-M3 TEL (transporter erector launcher), without radar. It's the only new Buk of the brigade shot in a close-up in the propaganda video:
https://www.1tv.ru/news/2018-01-31/3403...
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Carlos, "kijevski kontrolor letenja" zdaj trdi, da mu je RT plačal, ampak glede na vse ostalo laže.

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/statu...

Remember "Carlos The Spanish Air-Traffic Controller" of #MH17 infamy, who was even cited by Putin in blaming Ukraine for downing the plane? Welp, turns out Jose Carlos Barrios Sanchez is an ex-con accused of fraud. @CarlSchreck & @RFERL track him down

https://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if...

In early May 2014, as Ukraine's conflict with Russia-backed separatists in the east was exploding into all-out war, the Spanish-language channel of Russia's state-funded RT network brought on a guest to discuss the crisis.

...

This man, however, was a fabulist. And two months later, the Twitter account shown in the interview would launch one of the most notorious and enduring hoaxes of the Ukraine conflict -- one that would later be cited by a top Russian military official and, ultimately, President Vladimir Putin himself.

...

One claim in particular ricocheted across Russian state media and Twitter: that two Ukrainian fighter jets had flown close to the Boeing 777 shortly before it disappeared from the radar.

...

But a niggling question remained: If Carlos was a fake, who was the man in the RT Spanish interview?

Today, RFE/RL and the RISE Project, a Romanian investigative-journalism group based in Bucharest, can reveal that he is a Spanish ex-convict detained by Romanian police for alleged fraud in August 2013 -- nine months before his appearance on RT Spanish.

We also found substantial evidence linking this man to the @spainbuca account that posted the bogus MH17 tweets.

...

In the book, also titled The Putin Interviews, the Russian president is quoted as citing @spainbuca's claim in a July 2015 discussion about what happened to MH17.

"As far as I know, right away after this terrible catastrophe, one of the Ukrainian air controllers -- I think he is a specialist of Spanish origin -- announced that he had seen a military aircraft in the corridor assigned for civil aircraft. And there could have been no other military aircraft there but Ukraine's," Putin is quoted as saying in the Russian-language version of the book.

"I am not claiming that this plane shot down the civil aircraft, but the question nonetheless remains: What was it doing there in the corridor assigned for civil aircraft?" Putin added, according to Stone's book.


...

Bloggers and social-media users, meanwhile, dug up digital clues -- including photographs from a now-deleted Facebook profile -- about a man they believed to be Carlos. This man's purported name was Jose Carlos Barrios Sanchez, and he appeared to have ties to Romania. But few verified details about him or his background emerged.

...

On August 8, 2013, at around 3 p.m., a man and a woman stood near check-in desk No. 94 at Bucharest's Henri Coanda International Airport. The man was wearing an outfit featuring the logo of the Spanish airline Iberia. The woman, who was eager for a well-paying job, handed over around 80 euros -- purportedly to help finalize her employment with the Madrid-based carrier.

...

In a statement issued two days later, Romanian border police said the Spaniard had duped eight Romanian citizens into handing over between 70 and 130 euros each under the pretext of gaining employment with an airline. Authorities opened a fraud case against the man, and a Bucharest court ordered him to be held for 24 hours.

Romanian authorities discovered something else about the suspected con man: He was wanted in Spain, which had issued a European warrant for his arrest on charges of forgery and misappropriation

...

Romanian authorities decided to hand Sanchez over to Spain. A day after his detention at the airport, the Bucharest Court of Appeals ordered his arrest pending his transfer to Spanish authorities within 29 days.

...

Raquel Navarro, a spokeswoman for the Spanish prison authority, told us that Sanchez had served his six-month sentence. She said, however, that she could not provide the exact dates of his incarceration.

We analyzed Twitter mentions of @spainbuca by other users and found that they ground to a virtual halt in the six months following his arrest in Romania. They jumped again in mid-February 2014 -- just weeks before Russia seized Crimea and Carlos appeared on Spanish radio purporting to be an air-traffic controller in Kyiv.

...

Precisely why Sanchez decided to leap head-first into the polemics of the Ukraine conflict remains a mystery.

...

During our five-month investigation, we found no substantiated evidence attesting to either scenario -- or that Sanchez was anything other than a lone actor when he adopted the Carlos persona amid the escalating conflict in Ukraine.

...

In September 2017, we first exchanged e-mails with an individual claiming to be both Carlos in the RT Spanish interview and the operator of the @spainbuca Twitter account.

...

The sender name in the e-mails to us read "IAG jsB." A previous Facebook profile thought to have been used by Sanchez indicated his job as "JF Head of Operations at International Airlines Group." The company is also known as IAG.

Lorena Monsalves, a spokeswoman for the London-headquartered IAG, told us in an e-mail: "This person hasn't worked at IAG."

...

Sanchez also made some more sensational claims: He said that he had received "a lot of money, very large sums, from transfers that came from Russia." He claimed that he had been "told what I had to write" on his Twitter account.

He also claimed that he had received wire transfers from RT "a lot earlier" than his May 2014 interview with the network's Spanish-language channel, and that the alleged transfers were compensation for "what I was writing."

Sanchez claimed to have received a total of $48,000 from Russian sources as payment for his turn as "Carlos the Spanish Air-Traffic Controller."


RT denied ever making such payments.

"RT has never authorized any payments to this individual and accordingly has no record of such," Belkina, the network's spokeswoman, told us in an e-mail.

During our WhatsApp interactions, Sanchez insisted that he could provide evidence backing up these claims about a Russian link to the @spainbuca account, including bank records and recordings of conversations with RT employees. We asked him repeatedly to provide such evidence. He never did.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Uradno, JIT pravi, da je sistem, ki je sestrelil MH17 prišel iz Rusije.

Upam da se vsi neplačani dvigovalci prahu v imenu ruske vlade odlično počutite.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/...

An international team of investigators say they have uncovered hard evidence that a Russian military missile system fired the missile that shot down flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014.

...

The joint investigation team (JIT) looking into the incident is made up of Dutch prosecutors and police and others from Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine.

At a press conference in The Hague on Thursday, the investigators showed photo and video evidence they said proved that they had identified the specific BUK system responsible for shooting down the plane. They said they had “legal and convincing evidence which will stand in a courtroom” that the BUK system involved came from the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade based in Kursk in western Russia.

For the first time, the investigators appeared to confirm that the Russian military was complicit in the downing of the plane, at the very least by providing the missile system used. Previously, the investigative website Bellingcat has pointed to involvement of the same brigade using open-source information.

...

Fred Westerbeke, the chief prosecutor, said the investigation was in its last phase but could not say when he would be ready to file indictments. Two years ago, prosecutors said there were about 100 people under suspicion of direct or indirect involvement.

On Thursday, Westerbeke said that number had come down to several dozen, but declined to name them. He also said there was other evidence that would be kept secret until a court hearing began. “We don’t want to tell everything we know because then we are opening our cards to the other side and we do not want to do that,” he said.

Investigators have asked Russian authorities for information about the 53rd brigade but have been ignored, said Westerbeke.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Še Bellingcat. "Orion", ki je organiziral transport Buka, je Oleg Ivanikov. GRUjevec, človek za posebne naloge, pred tem je bil že obrambni minister v Južni Osetiji.

Dokazni material na povezavi.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-...

A joint international open source investigation led by Bellingcat has identified conclusively that the person of interest known as ‘Andrey Ivanovich’ or ‘Orion’ whose identity is sought by the Joint Investigating Team in connection with the criminal investigation into the downing of MH17, is in fact Russian citizen Oleg Vladimirovich Ivannikov, born on 2 April 1967.

Bellingcat has determined with very high certainty that at the time of the downing of MH17, Oleg Ivannikov was an officer of the Main Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Ministry of Defence (GRU), and served in that function until at least as late as September 2017.

...

Ivannikov was deployed to Ukraine at an undetermined point in the first half of 2014, and remained there at least until early 2015. During his undercover deployment to LNR, he coordinated and supervised the military activities of Russian militants, pro-Russian separatists and “private army” contingents from the Wagner group. Ivannikov also supervised the procurement and transport of weapons across the Russia Ukraine border. He held these functions at the time of the downing of MH17.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Fun times. Pečal se je s skrajno desnico. Not antifa very much.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-...

After returning from South Ossetia in 2008, Ivannikov wrote a PhD thesis (as a candidate of philosophy), titled ‘The Complex Nature of the Information War in the Caucasus: socio-philosophical aspects’, which he defended at the Southern Federal University in Rostov-on-Don.

...

The thesis, which cites, among others, works of Russian nationalist conspiracy theorist Alexander Dugin, proposes coordinated Russian counteraction of the so-called “western information and cultural infiltration of the Caucuses” by means of “special groups consisting of high-ranking officials, representatives of various special services (SVR, GRU, FSB, etc.), scientists with high intellectual potential, engineers, sociologists, political scientists, culturologists, psychologists, patriotic workers of mass media and cultural figures”.

...

On 2 July 2012, Ivannikov – using his real name – became director of the Russia-Caucasus Research Center of the International Institute of the Newly Established States in Moscow. The International Institute for Newly Established States is a Moscow-based think tank whose publications are focused on maintaining Russian sphere of influence in the republics of the former Soviet bloc. The institute does not disclose its sources of funding. Notably, at the same time when Ivannikov was appointed as director of its Caucuses branch, Polish citizen Mateusz Piskorski was appointed director of its East Europe branch. In 2016, Piskorski was detained by Polish law enforcement on charges of espionage for Russiа and his case is currently pending a court decision.


Mateusz Piskorski @ Wikipedia

Mateusz Piskorski (born 18 May 1977, Szczecin) is a Polish political neo-Eurasian activist, expert, and publicist, as well as a proponent of what he calls the "De-Americanization of the European continent" and "strategic shift of Europe's allies from the West to Russia" ("Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok").

...

As a student, Piskorski joined the Polish People's Party.[citation needed] He was also active in various societies promoting the idea of pan-Slavism.[citation needed] He was an activist of the far right Pagan "NIKLOT" society[2] and worked in various organizations of the popular-patriotic profile, such as the National-Democratic Party.[citation needed] A big impact on his political activities was the ideas of Polish political philosopher Jan Stachniuk (leader of the pre-war society "Zadruga"). Those ideas combine on the one hand passionate patriotism, and on the other consequent anti-capitalism and anti-globalism. In 2000, he travelled to Russia at the invitation of Pavel Tulaev to meet with other far right and pan-Slavic activists there.

...

Mateusz Piskorski, as an expert and political scientist, participated and co-organized a number of election monitoring missions, since 2007 organised by the pro-Kremlin European Center of Geopolitical Analysis.

Belarusian parliamentary election, 2004[13]
Abkhazian presidential election, 2009[14]
Belarusian presidential election, 2010[15]
Latvia 25 February 2011 (regional elections)[16]
Estonian parliamentary election, 2011[17]
Russian regional elections, 2011[18]
Latvian parliamentary dissolution referendum, 2011[19]
Germany 18 September 2011 (local elections)[20]
Armenian parliamentary election, 2012[21]
Nagorno-Karabakh presidential election, 2012[22]
Autonomous Republic of Crimea 16 March 2014 (referendum)[citation needed]
Russia 12–16 September 2014 (regional elections)[23]
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Higgins je malo tvital o ruskem odzivu na zadnja razkritja.

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status...

I'm virtually begging representatives of the Russian Federation to prove the work of my organisation is fake, as they have repeatedly claimed, but they refuse? What could it mean?!? #MH17

https://twitter.com/RussiaUN/status/100...

You’re making accusations without any evidence to back it up. It’s a classic propaganda technique already used against us in #Salisbury case, alleged CW attack in Douma. Nihil sub sole novum. Unlike you, we are ready to provide verifiable proofs:

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status...

Two weeks since @mfa_russia and @mod_russia accused Bellingcat of using fake #MH17 evidence, and despite repeated requests from for them to share it, they've yet to do so. They couldn't act guiltier if they tried.

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status...

On Russia refusing to publish evidence the JIT and Bellingcat are using fakes : "Since when does a great power have to answer moths?", to which I can only answer, "what great power?"

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status...

Now you can look at which #MH17 Truthers sent @Dpol_un "evidence" of Bellingcat using fakes using a simple Twitter search, and see what absolute garbage the Russian Federation is using in their defence.
https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&ver...


https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status...

Seriously though, if the best officials of the Russian Federation can do is hope a bunch of #MH17 truthers send them stuff on Twitter to defend Russia against accusations of being responsible for shooting down MH17, they're in deeeeep shit. I'm sure the judges will love it too.

https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status...

I love this, @dpol_un asks Twitter to send evidence of Bellingcat using fakes, and he gets a White Helmets Truther sending him conspiracy blog links. Can't wait to see Russia present this in court.
https://twitter.com/WhiteHelmetsEXP/wit...
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Rusija je malenkost patetična.

https://twitter.com/N_Waters89/status/1...

If anyone wants to watch the 1st Deputy Permanent Representative of Russia to the UN have a Twitter and/or mental meltdown, please follow this thread.

https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1...
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Danes je imelo rusko obrambno ministrstvo spet tiskovno konferenco. Raketa, ki je sestrelila MH17 naj bi bila l. 1986 dobavljena 223. regimentu zračne obrambe v Ukrajini, kjer je ostala tudi po razpadu SZ. Ergo - kriva je Ukrajina.

https://www.rt.com/news/438596-mh17-dow...

The missile was shipped from the plant on December 29, 1986 and delivered to military unit 20152 located in what is now Ukraine. It is now called 223rd anti-aircraft defense regiment of the Ukrainian armed forces, the report said. The unit took part in Kiev's crackdown on rebels in eastern Ukraine in June 2014, the general said.



Pozabili so povedat, da je buke iz točno tega regimenta Ukrajina prodala v Gruzijo, o čemer so poročali tudi ruski mediji.

Oktober 2008, gtranslate:

https://iz.ru/news/341307

In 2007, Georgia sold six Buk-M1 anti-aircraft missile systems, 48 ​​guided anti-aircraft missiles, 200 Strela and Igla missile systems, and T-72 tanks.

...

The Buk-M1 complexes were withdrawn from combat duty, and the 223rd rocket regiment simply proved to be incapacitated, said Valery Konovalyuk, the head of the commission for investigating the arms shipments of the Verkhovna Rada, commenting on Izvestia. - It turns out that we at the expense of our combat readiness have armed the aggressor in the Caucasus. In addition, weapons were delivered to Georgia at low prices, which deprived the Ukrainian budget of tens of millions of dollars. And this is at a time when the Ukrainian army needs to solve a mass of social problems. In general, Ukraine is becoming a serious supplier of contraband weapons, this trade is under the cover of the president.




Tam jih je zasegla ruska vojska. Suprise, suprise, zraven ni bilo poveljniškega vozila, ki bi lahko pomagalo z dodatnim radarjem. Spet oktober 2008, gtranslate:

http://old.redstar.ru/2008/10/08_10/2_0...

But the main trophies, as it turned out, were still ahead. Learning that at the airfield special forces discovered the disguised position of the technical battery with training equipment and a stack of containers with missiles for the anti-aircraft air defense missile system Buk, the chief of reconnaissance of the regiment became thoughtful. And where are the launchers themselves? The spetsnaz seems to have searched every meter on the base. The Georgians left the base in a hurry: if the Buki were still, then it would be too late to take them away.

And after a few hours the chief of the reconnaissance of the regiment, Major Vitaly Baranchikov and the deputy commander of the regiment on the rear, Lieutenant-Colonel Yuri Solod found what they were looking for. A few kilometers from the military base, the scouts stumbled upon half-rotten storage for automotive equipment that surrounded a wooden, sagging fence. There, in addition to the broken trucks, and found a whole battery of the Buk SAM. Two start-up plants were closed with protective awnings, and two self-propelled gun systems with antenna complexes were driven into the boxes.

...

The chief of reconnaissance did not expect the Georgians to try to take such an expensive technique, although it turned out to be absolutely serviceable. In the same barns there were two cars for repair and maintenance. There was not only a mobile command post - a special machine on a crawler base. However, without it, capable of operating in an autonomous mode with minimal deployment time, the battery was a serious danger for any air object flying at an altitude of up to 18 kilometers.

On closer examination, it turned out that the installations in 2007 were transferred from Ukraine to Georgia by sea - the loading sheets for ships (wooden planks) were still attached to the sides of the vehicles.

But now, from Georgia to Abkhazia, "Buki" went already on their own. Although the former masters did everything they could to avoid it. A few kilometers before the border, the Georgians made an attempt to destroy them.

...

Leaving the Buki at the peacekeeping post, three kilometers from the ambush, the scouts returned to the battlefield, but the attackers had already escaped.

...

The battery of the Buk anti-aircraft missile systems was captured by the Russian Airborne Forces," said Major Baranchikov, crossing the Georgian-Abkhaz border. "I'm sorry if something is damaged by the fragments." They were shooting ...
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Pac-Man ()

Truga ::

Cak cak, a niso rusi vztrajali da je avijon sestrelil en sukhoi?? :D

Pac-Man ::

Daj no, to je bilo daljnega decembra 2014.

https://www.rt.com/news/217295-mh17-ukr...

Russia's Investigative Committee has confirmed the claims by a Ukrainian, who said he witnessed the deployment of a Ukrainian warplane armed with air-to-air missiles on the day the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

7982884e ::

Te talenti so res neverjetni. Se malo let, pa bomo koncno prisli na "mi smo ga sestrelili, ampak kriva je Ukrajina, ker ni zaprla zracnega prometa".

No, sej za nekatere tukaj je to ze zdaj ok.

Pac-Man ::

Celovečerni dokumentarec o Bellingcatu

https://joop.bnnvara.nl/videos/terugkij...

Bellingcat - Truth in a Post-Truth World

recenzija:
https://variety.com/2018/film/reviews/i...
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Ob 5. obletnici nova imena odgovornih. Po pričakovanjih kombinacija upornikov in ruskih vojakov, z bukom so seveda upravljali Rusi.

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com...

Dutch tv Nieuwsuur presented at June 17, 2019 previously unknown names of MH17 suspects.

The first name is Sergej Moetskajev. He is the commander of the 53rd Anti Aircraft Missile Brigade based in Kursk, Russia. In 2014 he travelled with the convoy including the Buk which shot down MH17 from the base in Kurs to a military location near Millerovo, which is close to the Ukraine/Russian border.

...

Nieuwsuur also published the name of an Ukraine citizen named Ivan Bezjazikov. He worked for the Ukraine armed forces in 2014 but collaborated with the separatists. He was interrogated by the Ukraine police in late 2016 and then arrested. He is now on trial in Ukraine. In summer 2014 Bezjazikov met two Russian persons who are linked to the transport of the Buk from Russia towards the launch location.

Sergey Dubinsky (nickname Khmury) was the head of a special Russian intelligence service which was formed in early July 2014 and was active in the proxy war in Eastern Ukraine. The unit had around 300 men taking part in it. In the past Dubinsky served the Russian army in various conflicts like in Afghanistan.

...

A previously unknown name is Oleg Poelatov. He was the head of the reconnaissance/sabotage unit part of the special Russian intelligence service. He is also a Russian army officer and used nickname Gjoerza.

Poelatov was according intercepted telephone conversations in the morning of July 17, 2014 sent to the launch location.

The fifth unit of the special Russian intelligence service was tasked with logistics. The unit was lead by an Ukriane citizen named Dmity Kuprian nickname Batja. He has been convicted and confessed he was the leader of a separatist unit responsible for transport.

...

Nieuwsuur also revealed that the Ukraine secret service intercepted a lot of telephone conversations including many of Ivan Bezjazikov. Bezjazikov states these telephone conversations are authentic.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

JIT je vložil 4 obtožnice.

Živo tvitanje s tiskovke, predstavljen je bil tudi nov dokazni material

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/statu...

in videoposnetek

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Ukrajinski specialci so na okupiranem teritoriju ugrabili potencialno pričo sestrelitve/transporta buka. Weekend at Bernie's style. Mamile in šverc čez "mejo".

http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com...

Ukraine and Russian media are reporting that special forces of the Ukraine Secret Service (SBU) kidnapped a separatists leader of an anti-aircraft unit called Tsemakh Vladimir Borisovich (born July 4 1961) from separatists controlled area. He was given some drugs, put in a wheelchair and passed the border at a checkpoint near Maryinka. Tsemakh could be an important witness for the Joint Investigation Team.

BBC Russia writes the kidnap was done at June 27 2019. The laywer and daughter of Tsemakh confirmed the kidnap to BBC Russia.

...

At June 28 he was brought to Kiev. At June 29 the Shevchenko District Court in Kiev decided to keep Tsemakh two months in custody, according his lawyer Roman Gontarev.

Tsemakh might have knowledge about the downing of flight MH17. Tsemakh lead the anti-aircraft defense in Snizhne in the summer of 2014, the town nearest to the Buk launch site on 17 July 2014.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Ferdo66 ::

A je kapitan ameriškega rušilca kdaj kaj odgovarjal za tole...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Ai...

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Ferdo66 ()

Pac-Man ::

Uradno, ne.

Neuradno, da.

William C. Rogers III @ Wikipedia
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Smrekar1 ::

Ferdo66 je izjavil:

A je kapitan ameriškega rušilca kdaj kaj odgovarjal za tole...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Ai...


Par precej pomembnih razlik obstaja.

Za začetek:
Iran je vedel, da pošilja letala čez ožino, kjer potekajo boji in da ima sovrag na voljo rakete, ki lahko sestrelijo letalo na katerikoli višini.
Rusi nikogar niso obvestili, da so lokalni uporniki od ukrajinske vojske zasegli rakete zemlja-zrak, v inačici, ki jih uporablja samo Ruska vojska. Če bi jih obvestili bi lahko krivdo pripisali Ukrajincem (ker niso zaprli zračnega prostora) ali firmi Malaysia Airlines (ker so leteli čez znano nevarno območje).

Druga razlika je, da so kje kapetan križake (in ne rušilca) USS Vincennes desetkrat poklical IA655 in ni dobil odziva. Glede na zmogljivosti sistema BUK Rusi MH17 niso niti poklicali.

Kot tretje, sile ZDA so opravljale povsem legitimne posle v Zalivu: branile so mednarodno trgovino pred gusarji, ki jih je tja pošiljal prav Iran. Njihova prisotnost je bila legalna in legitimna, samoobramba tudi. Na isti dan so iranski gusarji streljali po helikopterju omenjene križarke, denimo. Po drugi strani Ruske enote nikoli niso imele pravice nepovabljeno vstopiti v Ukrajino.

fikus_ ::

Bulšit!!!
Tudi za v UKR se je vedelo, da potekajo boji! Oni usa kapitan se je pa "usral" od straha in streljal!

Smrekar1 ::

fikus_ je izjavil:

Bulšit!!!
Tudi za v UKR se je vedelo, da potekajo boji!


V pomoč:
https://si.openprof.com/wb/poved

nsa_ag3nt ::

Ferdo66 je izjavil:

A je kapitan ameriškega rušilca kdaj kaj odgovarjal za tole...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Ai...

Dobili so medalje, od kapitana naprej..


Smrekar1
USS Vincennes je bil v Iranskih vodah.


The flight was assigned routinely to commercial air corridor Amber 59, a 20-mile (32 km)-wide lane on a direct line to Dubai airport. The short distance made for a simple flight pattern: climb to 14,000 feet (4,300 m), cruise, and descend into Dubai.
The airliner was transmitting the correct transponder "squawk" code typical of a civilian aircraft and maintained radio contact in English with appropriate air traffic control facilities.


Contrary to the accounts of various Vincennes crew members, the cruiser's Aegis Combat System recorded that the airliner was climbing at the time and its radio transmitter was squawking on only the Mode III civilian frequency, and not on the military Mode II.[24]



According to the same reports, Vincennes unsuccessfully tried to contact the approaching aircraft, seven times on the military emergency frequency and three times on the civilian emergency frequency, but never on air traffic control frequencies.
**This civilian aircraft was not equipped to pick up military frequencies and the messages on the civilian emergency channel could have been directed at any aircraft**.


Leti kot potniško letalo po svoji ruti, počasi, se dviga, transponder prižgan, ja po logiki US navy gre za Iranski f14.
Moraš biti res slep in gluh, da zamenjaš F14 z Airbus A300.

Vprašanje tudi, če so iz USS Vincennes sploh kontaktirali Airbusa.Kot kaže so lagali kot pes teče.

Kamorkoli pridejo, zelo uspešno mešajo drek (kavbojci).
https://gizmodo.com/c/goodbye-big-five

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: nsa_ag3nt ()

nsa_ag3nt ::


In particular, Iran expressed skepticism about claims of misidentification, noting that the cruiser's advanced Aegis radar correctly tracked the flight and its Mode III beacon; two other U.S. warships in the area, Sides and Montgomery, also identified the aircraft as civilian; and the flight was well within a recognized international air corridor. It also noted that the crew of Vincennes were trained to handle simultaneous attacks by hundreds of enemy aircraft.[32](§4.50) Iran finds it more plausible that Vincennes "hankered for an opportunity to show its stuff".[32](§4.52)

According to Iran, the U.S. had previously issued a Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) warning aircraft that they were at risk of "defensive measures" if they had not been cleared from a regional airport and if they came within 5 nautical miles (9.3 km) of a warship at an altitude of less than 2,000 feet (610 m). Flight 655 had been cleared from a regional airport and was well outside those limits when it was attacked.[32](§4.62) Even if the plane had truly been an Iranian F-14, Iran argued that the U.S. would not have had the right to shoot it down, as it was flying within Iranian airspace and did not follow a path that could be considered an attack profile, nor did it illuminate Vincennes with radar.

Po logiki iz USS Vincennes bi potem morali streljati naj tudi iz dveh drugih ladij US Navy, ki sta bili blizu.


Pac-Man
Ukrajinski specialci so na okupiranem teritoriju ugrabili potencialno pričo sestrelitve/transporta buka. Weekend at Bernie's style. Mamile in šverc čez "mejo"

Bolj kredibilne priče ni možno dobiti.
Seveda bo priznal vse, tudi to da je videl Jetija v Himlaji in da so v Loch nessu 4 pošasti, ne samo 1.
https://gizmodo.com/c/goodbye-big-five

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: nsa_ag3nt ()

Smrekar1 ::

nsa_ag3nt je izjavil:


USS Vincennes je bil v Iranskih vodah.


Kamor je zaplul samo zato, ker ga je že napadla Iranska mornarica. Potem se ti nenadoma začne približevati še letalo, ki ga desetkrat pokličeš in ne odgovori in še kar leti proti tebi.

Zdaj je pa kapetan kriv, da je streljal na civilista in ti to primerjaš s tem, da je nek okajen Rus streljal po prvem letalu, ki ga je videl na radarju.

Patetika.

nsa_ag3nt ::

Tvoja logika ima več lukenj kot švicarski sir.
Med drugim tudi ta, da braniš us navy ne glede na vse, kar kaže proti njim.

According to the same reports, Vincennes unsuccessfully tried to contact the approaching aircraft, seven times on the military emergency frequency and three times on the civilian emergency frequency, but never on air traffic control frequencies.

Aegis na vseh treh us ladjah je kazal potniško letalo, na jasen dan greš lahko magari na palubo z daljnogledom in gledaš/poslušaš če ne verjameš.
A300 vs f14 je videti/slišati povsem drugače.


https://gizmodo.com/c/goodbye-big-five

Semafor ::

Smrekar1 je izjavil:


Kamor je zaplul samo zato, ker ga je že napadla Iranska mornarica. Potem se ti nenadoma začne približevati še letalo, ki ga desetkrat pokličeš in ne odgovori in še kar leti proti tebi.

Zdaj je pa kapetan kriv, da je streljal na civilista in ti to primerjaš s tem, da je nek okajen Rus streljal po prvem letalu, ki ga je videl na radarju.

Patetika.


USS Liberty ni napadel Iran ampak Izrael.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • predlagal izbris: Smrekar1 ()

Smrekar1 ::

nsa_ag3nt je izjavil:

T
Aegis na vseh treh us ladjah je kazal potniško letalo, na jasen dan greš lahko magari na palubo z daljnogledom in gledaš/poslušaš če ne verjameš.
A300 vs f14 je videti/slišati povsem drugače.


Najbrž ne boš razumel, ampak Aegis ne deluje prek daljnogledov in mikrofonov.


Ni Aegis.

Pac-Man ::

nsa_ag3nt je izjavil:

Bolj kredibilne priče ni možno dobiti.
Seveda bo priznal vse, tudi to da je videl Jetija v Himlaji in da so v Loch nessu 4 pošasti, ne samo 1.


Da je Buk s posadko prišel iz Rusije in se tja vrnil je jasno iz drugih virov. (Javnosti) neznano ostaja samo, kdo je sestavljal posadko. Zaenkrat smo omejeni na 53. brigado iz Kurska. Tu bi lahko pomagal.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-...

več, PDF:
https://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content/u...

Plus enemu potencialno odgovornemu se lahko sodi.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

7982884e ::

nsa_ag3nt je izjavil:

Tvoja logika ima več lukenj kot švicarski sir.
Med drugim tudi ta, da braniš us navy ne glede na vse, kar kaže proti njim.

According to the same reports, Vincennes unsuccessfully tried to contact the approaching aircraft, seven times on the military emergency frequency and three times on the civilian emergency frequency, but never on air traffic control frequencies.

Aegis na vseh treh us ladjah je kazal potniško letalo, na jasen dan greš lahko magari na palubo z daljnogledom in gledaš/poslušaš če ne verjameš.
A300 vs f14 je videti/slišati povsem drugače.

foteljski general, mislim da nimas izkusenj iz protiletalske obrambe, da bi lahko delal take zakljucke.

prav tako se lahko strinjamo, da takrat niso zanalasc sestrelili potnisko letalo, vedoc da je potnisko letalo.

tako kot niso rusi sestrelili MH-17, vedoc da je potnisko letalo. ceprav je 777 povsem druga stvar kot karkoli v ukrajinskem arzenalu, tudi med transporterji.

fikus_ ::

Ne bluzite! Na USA USS Vincennes so se od strahu "podelali v hlače" in v tej psihozi verjeli, da se jim bliža iransko vojaško letalo. Čeprav so videli, da ne spreminja smeri in se vzpenja ter tudi hitrost ni bila primerna za vojaško letalo! Ampak v tem stanju so verjeli da je vojaško letalo in ga sestrelili! Tako so vsaj opravičevali dogodek v dokumentarcu na TV. Bil je kar nekaj časa na Discovery ... .

jype ::

fikus_ je izjavil:

Ne bluzite! Na USA USS Vincennes so se od strahu "podelali v hlače" in v tej psihozi verjeli, da se jim bliža iransko vojaško letalo.
Transponder je bil vključen, zato bodisi drži, da je ameriška vojska popolnoma nesposobna, ali pa je bila sestrelitev namerna. Odločitev o tem, kaj se bralcu zdi manj grozljivo, mu z veseljem prepustim.

phantom ::

Smrekar1 je izjavil:


Par precej pomembnih razlik obstaja.

Za začetek:
Iran je vedel, da pošilja letala čez ožino, kjer potekajo boji in da ima sovrag na voljo rakete, ki lahko sestrelijo letalo na katerikoli višini.
Rusi nikogar niso obvestili, da so lokalni uporniki od ukrajinske vojske zasegli rakete zemlja-zrak, v inačici, ki jih uporablja samo Ruska vojska. Če bi jih obvestili bi lahko krivdo pripisali Ukrajincem (ker niso zaprli zračnega prostora) ali firmi Malaysia Airlines (ker so leteli čez znano nevarno območje).

Druga razlika je, da so kje kapetan križake (in ne rušilca) USS Vincennes desetkrat poklical IA655 in ni dobil odziva. Glede na zmogljivosti sistema BUK Rusi MH17 niso niti poklicali.

Kot tretje, sile ZDA so opravljale povsem legitimne posle v Zalivu: branile so mednarodno trgovino pred gusarji, ki jih je tja pošiljal prav Iran. Njihova prisotnost je bila legalna in legitimna, samoobramba tudi. Na isti dan so iranski gusarji streljali po helikopterju omenjene križarke, denimo. Po drugi strani Ruske enote nikoli niso imele pravice nepovabljeno vstopiti v Ukrajino.

V tednu pred sestrelitvijo MH17 sta bila sestreljena ukrajinska suhoj 25 in en antonov, oba sta letela nad 5 km, kar bi moral biti alarm za ukrajinske oblasti, da uporniki utegnejo imeti ustrezno protiletalsko obrambo. Uporniki so sicer uradno trdili, da sta letela dovolj nizko, da so jih sestrelili z MANPADI, Porošenko pa je obtoževal Rusijo, češ da so jih sestrelila ruska lovska letala. Vsaj kakšen dan pred sestrelitvijo MH17 so se na militaryphotos.net pojavile slike buka. Ukrajinske varnostne službe bi to morale zaznati in odgovorno bi bilo, da bi zaprli zračni prostor.
~
~
:wq

7982884e ::

to definitivno. da zracni prostor ni bil popolnoma zaprt nad sirso vzhodno ukrajino je odgovornost ukrajincev

Pac-Man ::

Odgovorno bi bilo. Zelo verjetno so imeli informacije.

Ampak bodi odgovoren, ko je vsem jasno, da si v konfliktu z Rusijo in mirno špilajo Francoze. Pač so zaprli do 10 km in upali da bo okej. Vojaška letala letijo nižje.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Pac-Man ()

Fritz ::

Pac-Man je izjavil:

Odgovorno bi bilo. Zelo verjetno so imeli informacije.

Ampak bodi odgovoren, ko je vsem jasno, da si v konfliktu z Rusijo in mirno špilajo Francoze. Pač so zaprli do 10 km in upali da bo okej. Vojaška letala letijo nižje.

Ilyushin Il-76 Service Ceiling 13.000m/42.651ft
Su-27 Service ceiling 18,000m/54,000ft

Takoj po strmoglavljenju sem opozoril, da bi zračni prostor na tistem območju moral biti zaprt, saj je prišlo do sestrelitve letal na srednjih višinah, kar presega višine do katerih delujejo prenosni protiletalski sistemi (SA-7/SA-16). FAA je že pred tem izdala opozorilo letalskim prevoznikom pod njeno ingerenco, naj se tistemu območju izogibajo.
"Težav ne moremo reševati z isto miselnostjo,
kot smo jo imeli, ko smo jih ustvarili."
A. Einstein

Pac-Man ::

Ko se ukvarjajo z dostavo take in drugačne robe na tla pač ne letajo na teh višinah.

Bi moral biti zaprt, ampak stvar postane malo komplicirana, če se vsi delajo Francoze. Je bilo pa vse znano že prej, npr. BBC 14. julija 2014:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-2...

A Ukrainian military transport aircraft has been shot down in the east, amid fighting with pro-Russian separatist rebels, Ukrainian officials say.
They say the An-26 plane was hit at an altitude of 6,500m (21,325ft).
The plane was targeted with "a more powerful missile" than a shoulder-carried missile, "probably fired" from Russia. The crew survived, reports say.
Russia has made no comment. Separately, Nato reported a Russian troop build-up near the Ukraine border.

...

Germany and Russia have urged direct talks between Kiev and the rebels.

And the UK and US have renewed calls for Russia to de-escalate the situation in eastern Ukraine.

Prime Minister David Cameron and President Barack Obama stressed the need for Moscow to take further steps towards peace or face further sanctions.


Thoughts & prayers.

Nekateri so se območju izogibali, drugi so letali nad 10 km.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Fritz ::

Potem, ko je bil tam opažen BUK sistem, ki ima višinski doseg 25.000m (M3 celo 35.000m), je vse skupaj predvsem posledica tako šlamparije UA kontrole zračnega prostora (lahko tudi namenskega žrtvovanja potniškega letala) in požrtnosti prevoznikov, ki so z leti čez to področje prihranili nekaj goriva.

To seveda druge strani ne odrešuje soodgovornosti za sestrelitev civilnega letala. Se bo pa tem ljudem težko kaj zgodilo, tako kot se ni nič zgodilo kapitanu in odgovornim častnikom ladje Vincennes, ker so delali za državo ali paradržavo. Kvečjemu na zahod ne bodo smeli potovati.

Ali je to prav? Ni. Soditi bi jim morali zaradi umora nedolžnih civilistov a ravno tako bi morali soditi ukrajinskim pilotom in generalom, ki so izvedli in ukazali napad na civiliste v Luhansku. Ti so na dosegu roke pravice v wannabe zahodni državi. So jim sodili?
"Težav ne moremo reševati z isto miselnostjo,
kot smo jo imeli, ko smo jih ustvarili."
A. Einstein

Smrekar1 ::

Fritz je izjavil:

Potem, ko je bil tam opažen BUK sistem, ki ima višinski doseg 25.000m (M3 celo 35.000m), je vse skupaj predvsem posledica tako šlamparije UA kontrole zračnega prostora (lahko tudi namenskega žrtvovanja potniškega letala) in požrtnosti prevoznikov, ki so z leti čez to področje prihranili nekaj goriva.


Opažen sistem BUK ne pomeni, da je tam nujno bil sistem BUK. Lahko ga je kdo zamenjal s čim drugim, lahko bi šlo tudi za maketo. Poleg tega to ni Ak-47, za BUK potrebuješ nekaj urjenja. Če samo imaš sistem BUK še ne pomeni, da si ga sposoben tudi uporabljati. Ruska vojska bi morala jasno naznaniti, da so v Ukrajino napotili sisteme BUK. Ostali imajo zanemarljivo malo krivde pri tem.

Ali je to prav? Ni. Soditi bi jim morali zaradi umora nedolžnih civilistov a ravno tako bi morali soditi ukrajinskim pilotom in generalom, ki so izvedli in ukazali napad na civiliste v Luhansku. Ti so na dosegu roke pravice v wannabe zahodni državi. So jim sodili?


Ukrajinski piloti in generali, ki so izvajali napade v Luhansku, so branili državo pred tujim okupatorjem. Kako lahko to primerjaš s sestrelitvijo civilistov iz tretjih držav?

fikus_ ::

Mislim da so z BUK-om upravljali ljudje, ki so pogojno vedeli, kaj upravljajo! Na radarju so videli, da nekaj leti na 10 km, niso pa imeli pojma, kaj je to! In v svojem prepričanju, da je vojaško letalo, so izstrelili raketo. Za rezultat pa vemo.

Sicer pa po bitki je lahko biti general.

Smrekar1 ::

fikus_ je izjavil:

Mislim da so z BUK-om upravljali ljudje, ki so pogojno vedeli, kaj upravljajo! Na radarju so videli, da nekaj leti na 10 km, niso pa imeli pojma, kaj je to! In v svojem prepričanju, da je vojaško letalo, so izstrelili raketo. Za rezultat pa vemo.


Verjetno res, ampak to je tudi nivo izurjenosti ruske vojske.

Brez urjenja, če zadevo prvič vidiš, ni tako lahko na radarju poiskati tarče in je zadeti:

Pac-Man ::

fikus_ je izjavil:

Mislim da so z BUK-om upravljali ljudje, ki so pogojno vedeli, kaj upravljajo!


Vsi znaki kažejo, da je šlo za poklicne vojake ruske vojske (kontraktnike). Novo je, da naj bi bili party ppl alkoholiki.



Možno.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.

Pac-Man ::

Long-form o Tsemaku in njegovi aretaciji.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-...

Na desni je post faktum:
Najbolj zanimiv del je sveže izbrskano priznanje, da je sodeloval pri skrivanju Buka. Našli so ga v seriji dokumentarcev, ki jih je l. 2015 posnela ruska parlamentarna stranka Rodina. Ključna beseda je sicer bleepana, ampak zelo verjetno gre za buk. Po nekem čudnem naključju originalni posnetki izginjajo iz spleta, avtorji pa niso pripravljeni razčistiti morebitnega nesporazuma.



On 6 July 2019, Twitter users discovered and posted links to a 2015 documentary, containing a series of on-camera interviews with Tsemakh and other separatists. The 14-part documentary titled “Brother against Brother” was posted on YouTube on 19 June 2015 by a regional office of the Rodina party, a pro-Kremlin nationalist quasi-opposition party, which had produced the film as part of what it called a “humanitarian-cultural visit to the Donbas”.

More than simply evidence for his role in the air defense at Snizhne around the time of the downing of MH17, the footage with Tsemakh contains what appears to be a damning admission to his personal involvement in hiding the Buk missile launcher in the aftermath of its use on 17 July 2014. (...) When traveling to Nikishino from the south, they stop at a crossing near Petropavlivka, a mining village just 1 kilometer to the north of the point where MH17 was hit by a Buk missile, and where part of the airplane debris had fallen. (...) The conversation then proceeds with an apparent admission by Tsemakh that a Buk missile was fired from Russian and separatist-held territory and that he had a role in hiding the Buk missile launcher after the shoot-down of MH17:


Tsemakh: No, why not? I will tell you… It destroyed a Sushka [i.e. Sukhoi jet] — well, this, later, you know… [Tsemakh gestures to the camera as if he expects that this part will be cut out later] — it destroyed a Sushka, yes, and the other Sushka shot down the Boeing. I know about this. I pulled out that young guy, and I hid this *bleep* [Buk]. I will show you even where it lifted off, and where I picked it/him up [Tsemakh proceeds to laugh]
While the object that Tsemakh claims he was hiding is bleeped out by the film producers, his mouth movement clearly indicate that the word contains a “u” (“у” in Cyrillic) letter (in Russian pronounced “oo”).

Since the discovery of this video, some Russian bloggers and media have claimed that Tsemakh does not utter the word “Buk” in the bleeped-out segment, but instead the one-syllable word “khuy” (хуй), Russian for dick or dickhead. (...) However, this explanation is inconsistent with the timing of the speech segment, with Russian grammar, and with the context of Tsemakh’s narrative. If Tsemakh indeed had uttered “I hid this dickhead”, in Russian he would have had to use the accusative case for animate objects [“прятал этого хуя”], which would have required 5 syllables to fit within the bleeped-out section of his interview (“..э-то-го ху-я…”). If he had uttered “I hid the Buk”, only 3 syllables (“…э-тот Бук”) would have to fit under the bleep.

...

One recorded phone intercept from 9:32pm between GRU DNR members Leonid “Krot” Kharchenko and Eduard “Ryazan” Gilazov reveals that the removal of the Buk and its crew did not go according to plan, as one of the Buk operators lost his colleagues and had to be escorted to Snizhne from an unspecified checkpoint. Some have suggested that this was the “young guy” that Tsemakh referred to in his confession, but it is unknown if this is true.

...

At one point, the regional office of the Rodina party has disabled the website where it hosted links to the documentary. The videographer who shot the documentary, Alexander Vinchenko, has recently deleted an upload of this segment of the documentary from his own YouTube account, while he still keeps online the documentary parts that do not contain interviews with Tsemakh. We approached Vinchenko via his VK account to ask why he had deleted the video, and what word(s) were bleeped out and why, but he did not respond to our questions by presstime. Novaya Gazeta reported that it approached the interviewer Vyacheslav Kotsenko (a Cossack and regional leader of the Rodina party) with a question if he remembers what the redacted segment of the interview contains. Upon hearing the question, Mr. Kotsenko disabled public access to his social media account.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
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