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Freenode sovražno prevzet, del osebja ustanovil libera.chat

Freenode sovražno prevzet, del osebja ustanovil libera.chat

Slo-Tech - Freenode, IRC omrežje za komunikacijo na temo odprtokodnih projektov, včasih tudi znano pod imenom Open Projects Network, je po izjavah dela osebja doživelo sovražni prevzem. Korejski podjetnik Andrew Lee, lastnik podjetja Freenode Limited, ki sicer nima nobene zveze s samim omrežjem, se je s pomočjo ene od vodij dokopal do lastništva freenodovih domen. Kar se po njegovem mnenju razteza tudi na lastništvo freenode skupnosti in pripadajočega omrežja, zato je pred časom kot administratorje začel zaposlovati svoje ljudi.

Dosedanje osebje poudarja, da Freenode Limited nima nobene zveze z delovanjem freenoda. Ni lastnik nobenega strežnika, niti ne plačuje osebja, niti ni prispeval sredstev za infrastrukturo omrežja, niti nima z nikomer sklenjene nobene pogodbe. Administratorji freenoda so sicer prostovoljci, strežniško opremo zagotavljajo zunanji podporniki.

Andrew Lee trdi nasprotno, po njegovem mnenju mu kot lastniku Freenode Limited pripada dostop do strežnikov, prav tako je po lastnih besedah v omrežje vložil na milijone dolarjev.

Osebje se je v večjem delu spremembam uprlo, precej jih je sprva napisalo pogojne odstopne izjave, ki bi postale veljavne v primeru, da bi Leeju sovražni prevzem uspel. To se je pozneje tudi zgodilo in enajst administratorjev je odstopilo in ustanovilo novo omrežje libera.chat, uporabnike pa pozvalo k migraciji, saj po lastnih besedah na freenodu ne morejo več zagotavljati varnosti podatkov.

Kot je moč videti iz medijev in družbenih omrežij, se precejšen del skupnosti seli na libera.chat. Dobro obveščeni pa vendarle še dopuščajo možnost, da bo v kratkem prišlo do dogovora, freenode pa se bo vrnil v stare tirnice, ki so sicer mirno tekle vse od ustanovitve leta 1995.

24 komentarjev

z0mbie ::

Wtf... preklet bastard nemaren. Hvala za tole novico.

Mularija... sprobajte malo IRC, mogoce boste ugovili, da applikacije za chat niso vredne pocenega grosa - ce seveda rabite chat in informacije, ne pa posiljanje svojih narcisoidnih izpadov.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: z0mbie ()

Samael ::

Zanimivo branje:

My resignation from freenode staff
==================================

I joined the freenode staff in March 2019 [1].

Before I joined the staff, Freenode Ltd was sold [2] to a person named
Andrew Lee as part of a sponsorship deal. The informal terms of that
arrangement, discussed with staff and users at the time, included that
Andrew would neither obtain nor exercise operational control over the
network, and that it would continue to be run independently by the
volunteer staff, and this was communicated to users clearly [3].

What has become clear to us in the last few days is that we were lied to,
by both Andrew and christel. Contrary to public and private statements, the
sale included the network as a whole, something christel should not have
had the ability to relinquish, as most of the infrastructure is not owned
by her or any of us. However, Andrew has more money than us, and so we
cannot fight this.

It should have been disclosed to us, and you, that for the last 3 years (and
then some), we have not in fact been working with a team of volunteers, but
rather that we have collectively all been doing unpaid work for a company.


Timeline of critical events:


1) In early 2021, the freenode website was altered to begin prominently
   mentioning Shells, a company that Andrew co-founded [4].

   This was not discussed among staff at the time. This caused some
   disruption and considerable confusion among staff for months afterward,
   as to how to handle user inquiries about it, of which we received many.

   Ultimately, christel chose to resign rather than explain the situation to
   us.

   As an addendum, this is *extremely* irregular. All website advertising is
   usually only found at [5].


2) In early April 2021, Andrew insisted that we remove a blog post [6],
   which was created after christel's resignation. This was also not
   discussed. I cannot give an accurate timestamp because the history of the
   website was rewritten to never contain the blog post in the first place,
   so there is no commit removing it.

   The blog post outlines a change of leadership, as we, the collective
   staff as a whole, decided that we needed a new head of staff, and we
   elected tomaw to that position.

   Andrew should have no right to be concerned about who we put in charge,
   as it was promised that he would be hands-off and let us continue to run
   the network as we always have.

   The blog post also outlines that we were continuing to develop a
   replacement IRCd, Solanum [7], which we started back in September 2020.

   Before September 2020, the development effort was being spent on upstream
   Charybdis instead, since at least December 2019 (see [8] through [41] for
   details, inclusive), with edk (head of our development team) doing almost
   all of the work. The intention was that freenode would be migrating to
   Charydis when it was ready. That plan fell apart because of unrelated
   drama, and Charybdis was forked (again) at that point.

   The work being done on Charybdis, and Solanum since, was in an effort to
   make the network easier to administer, and allow for the implementation
   of new IRCv3 features, such as message IDs (necessary for message
   editing and deletion) and BRB/RESUME support.

   If Andrew had concerns about what we were doing with the IRCd, he has had
   since December 2019 to raise them. I can confidently say we've heard
   nothing on that front, except wild delusions, such as that we were doing
   this to merge with OFTC, which is frankly prepostorous.


3) In the final few days of April 2021, the freenode testnet (which was
   being used to ready Solanum in preparation for the network's migration to
   it) was shut down, again without discussion.

   Attempts to discover a reason why were met with silence. Tom has not been
   able to talk about it, but I strongly suspect that Andrew is behind it,
   and given Tom's silence on the subject, I suspect Andrew used the threat
   of legal force to ensure it. I have also heard rumours that a gag order
   was sent to a large collection of OFTC staff, of all people? I cannot
   state concretely whether that is the case, but it would not surprise me.

   While I have not had much interaction with the IRCd side of things beyond
   code review, with my development focus being on services instead [42], I
   have submitted pull requests to improve it [43]. I was also one of the
   Charybdis IRCd maintainers [44], of which Solanum is a fork. Seeing this
   effort just disappear, and seemingly the entire line of Charybdis
   development as a whole, is highly discouraging.


4) At the same time as the testnet shutdown, Andrew registered the channel
   "#freenode-board" for unknown reasons, without prior discussion.

   This was in the wrong namespace [45], as he was not a freenode group
   contact, nor was he authorised to act on behalf of the freenode project.

   However, we do not routinely enforce that only group contacts can
   register channels in the primary namespace, and to make an exception in
   this case would be counter-productive.


5) An associate and employee of Andrew, Shane Allen ("rdv" / "nirvana"), was
   observed boasting on another network that they were soon going to become
   a member of the freenode staff, which was unknown to freenode staff at
   the time.

   We elect staff members at our own discretion, and always collectively
   discuss it first.

   A few weeks later, they were also observed asking around for volunteers
   to join freenode staff, an act which they did not have the capacity or
   authorisation to do.

   Finally, they attempted to bribe a prominent network user (and former
   staff member) into joining their cause [46][47].


6) Andrew wrote the following message in the official network support
   channel:

   2021-05-11T17:54:16Z <rasengan> Hey Freenode Staff! Hope you're well. A
     message from the official board of Freenode Limited, owner of the
     freenode IRC network: kevinp is in charge of infrastructure and has
     been legally resolved into this position by the board of Freenode.
     Please work with him to get his access and credentials in place
     smoothly.

   This is as clear a violation of the agreement as any of the incidents I
   could have written about.

   This was followed by this private message to myself:

   2021-05-11T17:56:28Z <rasengan> Hey there, please review my message in
     #freenode -- this is an official notice from the board. Compliance is
     requested.

   This is odd, in that I do not have, nor have I ever had, the credentials
   and privileges necessary to act upon it, something he should have known.
   I've made it no secret that I am not an especially-privileged staff
   member.

   But to make this abundantly clear: Even if I could comply, I would not.
   It is not at all clear that he is entitled to access to any of our
   servers or user data, and he had repeatedly refused to provide proof of
   this when asked to do so.

   With these circumstances in mind, giving him (or his designated
   representatives) access would violate the trust of all of our users, and
   would also be illegal in many of the jurisdictions in which we operate.
   The founder of an information technology company should know this.

   After Tom was forced to burn thousands of pounds of personal money in
   order to respond to Andrew's attorneys, they *eventually* provided a
   sale contract (which I have not seen). The legal opinion is that the
   contract is valid.

   By the way, when he mentions "the board of Freenode", he really just
   means himself. This kind of toxic self-aggrandisement is most unwelcome.


7) Andrew then followed on with these messages, again to the official
   network support channel:

   2021-05-12T16:18:27Z <rasengan> Hi Staffers - wanted to write you all a
     thing trying to clear up the lies going around recently, but dont want
     to flood, so:

   2021-05-12T16:18:28Z <rasengan> Message regarding recent events at
     Freenode:
     https://gist.github.com/realrasengan/88549ec34ee32d01629354e4075d2d48
     and Message received from tomaw:
     https://gist.github.com/realrasengan/f569c5e4727d21eb939fff99cb9dc84c

   2021-05-12T16:18:28Z <rasengan> Thanks for taking the time to fully
     understand the truth.

   None of us responded to this, as Tom was in consultation with lawyers at
   this time, and we received advice to not interact.

   The claims laid out in the first link are as follows:


     A) "Shells sponsors freenode providing 3k/mo"

        This is the first we're hearing of any money being involved.

        Furthermore, since Andrew is the only person left in the company,
        isn't he sponsoring himself? I'm sure there are interesting tax
        implications in that ...


     B) "Tomaw's team attacks christel [...] and she resigns, unable to deal
         with the persistent harassment"

        I was a first-hand observer to her departure. This is entirely
        false. She left us with a 14-paragraph e-mail about it, and signed
        off with us on good terms at the time.


     C) "Rather than allow for a usual grace period after resignation [...]
         Tomaw's crew abruptly cuts christel's access"

        There is no usual grace period. When a staff member resigns, their
        credentials and privileges are revoked. This is just good infosec
        hygiene, and is yet again something that an information technology
        company founder should be capable of grasping.


     D) "Rather than wait until we speak again, Tomaw turns around and
         changes up the staff and website."

        Tom didn't do anything. We, the staff as a whole, collectively
        decided that we needed a new head of staff after christel's
        resignation, and we chose Tom for that position.

        Furthermore, the only website change was the innocuous blog post
        that he insisted we remove, and it wasn't written or published by
        Tom; Fuchs is our community and social outreach person, and they
        authored and published that post. This is indicated on the post.


     E) "Given the millions I have injected into freenode thus far"

        I cannot keep a straight face while reading this. The server
        hardware is sponsored free of cost; we will occasionally receive an
        invoice for $0, but that's only because of how the accounting
        systems at some of our sponsors operate. I can't possibly imagine
        that the few freenode live conferences cost more than 50k; and all
        of the other miscellaneous expenses (like the renewal costs for the
        domain names) are well under a few hundred pounds per year.

        Anything he would have donated before Freenode Ltd's acquisition is
        unknown to me, but that would have been from the position of a
        benefactor, not a supposed owner. To try to twist this in his favour
        in this manner turns my stomach.

        In the interest of full disclosure (something Andrew appears not to
        be capable of [48][49][50][51][52][53][54]), I did receive a
        reimbursement in the amount of GBP41.99 when I joined freenode staff,
        to cover the cost of a hardware multi-factor authentication security
        token. This was used for, among other things, securing access to our
        GitHub organisation. This money was provided by christel [55]; where
        she obtained it from, I do not know. This is the only money that I
        have ever seen, let alone received, that is in any way related to or
        connected with freenode.


   2021-05-12T16:33:17Z <rasengan> As I'm sure you have taken the time now
     to digest the messages -- as you all know, I am the man of second,
     third, and infinite chances. I love this world, I love freenode and I'm
     going to continue doing everything I can to stay true to who I have
     strived to be. This won't make me waiver. If any current or former
     staff wishes to talk this through, don't hesitate to send me a message
     privately. I believe a lot of what's happened here is forgivable and I
     am more than willing to give second chances and move on. If you would
     love to keep freenode running, we would love to have you. Please let me
     know!

   Andrew, we do not need your forgiveness, for we have done nothing wrong.



This situation is intolerable, and I suspect it is only going to get a lot
worse in the immediate future.

The freenode user base should consider very strongly that a hostile entity
is now in operational control over the network, and is in posession of your
data.

Given the bad faith on the part of Andrew & christel (not disclosing to us
the nature of ownership of the network, not providing a contract of sale
until forced to do so, public inflammatory statements and lies about staff
on the part of the former, etc.) I hereby resign from my volunteer position
with freenode staff, with immediate effect. I am not willing to work under
Andrew Lee.

To the remaining staff; it has been wonderful to know you all, and work with
you these last few years, and I hope to join you in future endeavours.

Please perform the usual immediate revocation of my staff credentials and
privileges across the network, the webserver, and the GitHub organisation;
and remove my subscription to the staff mailing list. I promise to not whine
publicly about it.



As a parting gift, I leave you all with this little nugget:

2021-03-15 21:21:47 <rasengan> I have not, am not, and will not interfere
  with the operations of freenode outside of when asked for help



Sincerely,
Aaron Jones (amdj)
Former freenode staff / Development Team
PGP [56]: 97D5 8E60 7188 C8C9 8648 1CB7 6A2F 8980 0051 9052


Vir: https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a...
Samael != Samuel

Samael ::

Tip, ki je prevzel Freenode je Andrew Lee - "the crown prince of Korea".

As it is now known, the freenode IRC network has been taken over by a Trumpian wannabe korean royalty bitcoins millionaire. To make a long story short, the former freenode head of staff secretly "sold" the network to this person even if it was not hers to sell, and our lawyers have advised us that there is not much that we can do about it without some of us risking financial ruin. Fuck you Christel, lilo's life work did not deserve this.


Freenode staff have stepped down. The network that runs at freenode.org/net/com should now be assumed to be under control of a malicious party. Andrew Lee will likely gain control over the NickServ database at some point.


Dear freenode users and projects,

I joined freenode staff a bit more than 10 years ago, after having used
the network for already roughly 5 years by that time.
During this time, I enjoyed supporting our communities in various roles;
I met some of you through first level support,
through my work for the groups team or due infra work.

I still think that freenode as a network is a great idea,
and offers projects and groups of any size a possibility to collaborate,
coordinate or just chat freely and for free.

Since these early times, freenode changed form a couple of times.
The whole work was, however, always done by unpaid volunteers
that grew into close friends over time.
All the servers we have and all the paid services we use
were sponsored by either companies or friends and allies.
We never wanted to be, never were and never will be a business.

A couple of years ago, christel, now former head of freenode staff
sold `freenode ltd` (a holding company) to a third party,
Andrew Lee, under terms that have not been disclosed to the staff body.
This was done, from what we were informed, to organize our freenode
#live conferences, that required a legal body.
We were repeatedly promised, by both christel and Andrew Lee,
that neither the holding nor Andrew Lee would have any operational impact
on freenode the IRC network. We gladly forwarded this to our users,
who were understandably concerned as well.

In the past few weeks, this has changed, and the existance of a legal threat
to freenode has become apparent. We cannot know the substance of this legal
threat as it contains some kind of gag order
preventing its broader discussion within staff.
The democratically elected heads of their respective teams,
development, infrastructure, projects and communities
were removed by force and have been informed that they are not
entitled to act in their respective capacity.
As a result, Mr Lee wants and partially has operational control
over the freenode IRC network now.
This goes against my personal values, beliefs and rules,
this goes against what we have been doing for the past 10 years,
this goes against our promises to our users and communities.

Due to a leak of a personal resignation letter draft,
Andrew Lee learned of the situation and asked democratically elected
freenode volunteers to step down from their position, as seen in the
logs linked on ...

Included in these logs are also logs from third party users that show
that associates from Mr Lee, namely the user rdv, contacted
various people and offered them oper access on the new network
for money or revenge. It sickens me to the stomach to see our community
that we built in the last 20 years to be lost to this kind of management.
As you can imagine, the community was unhappy as well and we got loads
of feedback. Thank you very much, this means a lot to us. We've also seen
channel ops standing up to the potential new management, see e.g.

This really means a lot to us, but unfortunately reality sometimes looks
different, especially when lawyers and potential lawsuits were involved.
A contract in which christel, former head of staff, allegedly sold freenode, surfaced.
And while I personally think that this would have neither included any servers
or code or user data, since that did not belong to christel to sell, I am not a lawyer
and apparently some of our volunteers got pressured very hard and their personal life
could have been ruined easily should we have fought against this apparent contract.

As you can imagine, this kind of proceeding makes me even less want
to spend any of my volunteering time for the potential new management,
and I wouldn't want to be responsible for sensitive user data under that management, either.
Therefore I, along with my colleagues, resigned from my volunteer position
as a freenode staffer. I had all my access removed, so that I could not hand
it or any data over to a third party, even if I wanted or if I were forced to.

--

Where will we be going from here?

We are founding a new network with the same goals and ambitions: libera.chat.
It is backed by a swedish non-profit which lets us hold the name,
domain and various other assets to avoid a hostile corporate takeover.
It allows us to continue to operate the network as unpaid, neutral volunteers.
It allows us to ensure that your personal data does not end up as an
asset to some company that could consider monetizing it.

You can connect to the new network at `irc.libera.chat`,
ssl port 6697 (and the usual clearnet port).


We're really sorry that it had to come to this.
When we told you that freenode ltd. and Andrew Lee / PIA / LTM / ...
won't have any impact on freenode,
we always communicated based on what we knew and what we were promised.

I'm aware that such a move is hard, especially for established communities.
We will do our very best to support you if you plan to join us on libera.

I hope to see the lot of you on the other side,
feel free to contact me on the new network if you have any questions.

A big thank you to my former freenode colleagues, all our users,
projects and communities that acompanied us for more than a decade.
Thank you very much, keep rocking and making the
free / open source software and peer directed communities great.

Christian (Commonly known as Fuchs)



Fuchs: https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-let...
amdj: https://gist.github.com/aaronmdjones/1a...
kline: https://www.kline.sh/
jess: https://gist.github.com/jesopo/45a3e9cd...
Md: https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461
niko: https://coevoet.fr/freenode.html
edk: https://gist.github.com/edk0/478fb4351b...
emilsp: https://gist.github.com/pinkisemils/39d...
mniip: https://mniip.com/freenode.txt
Swant: https://swantzter.se/freenode-resignati...
JonathanD: https://gist.github.com/JonathanD82/651...

Mimogrede tudi "uradni" #ubuntu support kanal je že migriral na libera.chat IRC network
Samael != Samuel

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Samael ()

LeQuack ::

Hm vedno pravijo trere is always two sides to every story. Tko da resnica je najbrž nekje vmes.
Na glavni strani https://freenode.net/ je tudi Andrew (aka sovražni prevzemnik glede na Slo-Tech) napisal svojo stran:


On freenode and its commitment to FOSS
rasengan on 2021-05-19

Dear freenode,

First and foremost, I want to thank the hard working staff for keeping freenode running during these challenging times. Without you, this wouldn't be possible.

On Recent Events

Since 2013, I have been a major sponsor of freenode providing servers and funding through one of my companies. I have no intention to stop this in the future. The rumors of a 'hostile takeover' are simply untrue - I've been the guardian and owner of freenode since 2017, when Christel, the former owner approached me and asked if I was interested in purchasing it, as we had in previous years discussed this.

In April of this year, after Christel had resigned, I was approached by the new Head of Staff, tomaw, who asked if he could have ownership over the domains. I responded with my wish to decentralize the network. Subsequently, I learned I was locked out of the account a few days later. When I asked for access back, I was denied and suddenly a story that I was attempting a hostile takeover began to spread.

At this point, I became worried about the safety of freenode -- it was odd that freenode limited, represented by me, was locked out of freenode's accounts when I used to have access the whole time. After subsequent attempts to get access back, I resorted to reaching out through an attorney.

Finally, tomaw voluntarily handed back all of the accesses to freenode limited. This is good news, as freenode will continue to run as it had with the support it has always had. Furthermore, tomaw and I have engaged in civil discussion as we are both in agreement as it relates to wishing for freenode to continue to be what it has been. I am optimistic these discussions will end with a positive result for the community -- which is the most important participant here.

We're doing this for you, as we have until now and as we will in the future.

On Decentralization

We're going to provide more voted representation across all sectors for the freenode userbase and groups that call freenode home. Additionally, we will be opening up the server-link process to be much more inclusive, albeit, by vote (like some of the other larger networks). Finally, in order to remove the strong reliance on a centralized network, we are currently reviewing decentralizing policies including potentially revisiting the nomenclature of servers on freenode (end reliance on a single domain name).

On Sponsorships and Logos

As I have been funding freenode since 2013, there has been a logo of one of my companies or a company I'm involved in on the website. In general, FOSS projects have historically struggled to obtain funding and often times simply showing sponsors on the website helps to alleviate this to some degree. This is no different here. Every company that has appeared on the freenode website has provided financial sponsorship or servers or both to freenode. I want to send a clear message to those who disagree - you're not helping FOSS, and your behavior of ritual defamation is toxic at best. We want to encourage sponsors to help open source developers and communities to be sustainable, not the opposite.

On the Future and Other Communities

I encourage the community to reach out and engage in discussion with the staff in #freenode-staff-discussion at anytime in order to provide input on the future of freenode. For all of the communities who are on the fence about what to do, please rest assured. Freenode is freenode, and it exists for the sake of the FOSS movement.

Yours truly,

Andrew Lee (rasengan) Chairman, freenode limited
Quack !

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: LeQuack ()

LeQuack ::

In pa še malo bolj objektiven članek na to temo:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=...

"It is worth noting that Private Internet Access / London Trust Media formerly owned the Linux Journal and has contributed/donated to various open-source projects. Andrew Lee is also involved in the current Shells.com Linux "cloud desktop" startup, which has been embraced by a number of different Linux distributions. So the interest in Freenode isn't entirely a surprise especially given his history and long interest in IRC. "
Quack !

pegasus ::

Torej otroci se niso naveličali irc takeoverjev niti potem, ko so odrasli?

Samael ::

LeQuack je izjavil:

Hm vedno pravijo trere is always two sides to every story. Tko da resnica je najbrž nekje vmes.
Na glavni strani https://freenode.net/ je tudi Andrew (aka sovražni prevzemnik glede na Slo-Tech) napisal svojo stran


In se lagal.
Kako dobro pa kaj poznaš Freenode in njegovo zgodovino?
Naj te spomnim, da po smrti ustanovitelja lila in neuspešnega poskusa njegovega brata monetizirati freenode, Christel ni bila nikoli lastnica domene, lastnica networka, lastnica nickserv podatkov uporabnikov itd... ampak je imela do tega kot former head of Freenode's staff zgolj dostop, ter prodala nekaj, kar ji je bilo zaupano v administracijo v dobro FOSS skupnosti, ni bilo pa njeno.
Da niti ne omenjam, da je Freenode, serverje itd... sponzoriralo precej podjetij, da staff za svoje voluntersko delo ni prejemalo plačila, medtem ko Andrew navaja kako je investiral milijone v Freenode. A kar? Zakaj že? Kako to, da o tem ne ve nihče ničesar?

Tam zgoraj imaš linke odstopnih izjav dela ekipe (sicer je odšlo še krepko več adminov, mislim da cca 25), katere člani so v FOSS vodah leta, nekateri desetletje in več, ki so vzdrževali, urejali, razvijali, zapravljali ure in ure svojega življenja skozi leta brez kakršnega koli finančnega nadomestila, ker so v to verjeli, po drugi strani pa razvajenega pridaniča, ki porine prste v vse, kamor pride (Mt. Gox - remember anyone?) in nima prav nobene moralne osnove, da si lasti Freenode, ima pa kupe denarja, proti čemur, žalostno, ti ljudje ne morejo zmagati.
Samael != Samuel

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Samael ()

LeQuack ::

Hm tudi če je vse res kar praviš, potem očitno ta Andrew guy ni glavni krivec tu, razen če je kriv tega da ima denar (česar je kriva dosti ljudi tukaj na forumu... kmh kriptovalute). Ampak nekdo ki je meglo prodajal.

Ok zdaj so nardili ta alternative network, konkurenca je zmer kul, samo kaj če jih čez 5 let spet nekdo užali in bodo čez noč spet pobrali kopita. Najbolj na zgubi so seveda userji, community, ki se bo sedaj razpršil.
Quack !

Ales ::

Samael je izjavil:

Naj te spomnim, da po smrti ustanovitelja lila in neuspešnega poskusa njegovega brata monetizirati freenode, Christel ni bila nikoli lastnica domene, lastnica networka, lastnica nickserv podatkov uporabnikov itd... ampak je imela do tega kot former head of Freenode's staff zgolj dostop, ter prodala nekaj, kar ji je bilo zaupano v administracijo v dobro FOSS skupnosti, ni bilo pa njeno.

Čigavo je pa bilo?

Zgolj ohlapna definicija "skupnosti" ne more biti formalni lastnik nečesa. Nazadnje, ko sem gledal, je Freenode bil celo inkorporiran kot non profit. Kaj se je zgodilo s tem?

(sem on off na IRC-u praktično od začetka in malo poznam ozadje, podrobnosti pa ne...)

Matthai ::

Saj ni problema. Če neko naduto kriptoprase skuša zadeve skomercializirati, se uporabniki upremo in gremo drugam. Svet je velik. Da bi pa zaradi tega bilo kaj manj uporabnikov je pa oslarija. En klik, pa si na novem strežniku.

Tako ali tako pa število uporabnikov IRC-a ne narašča, kvečjemu obratno.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain...
Time to die.

Lonsarg ::

Hja bo treba pure 100% P2P domainless infrastrukturo imeti, da se take zgodbice ne bodo dogajale.

Ales ::

Kaj bi brez IRC drame! :D

Samael ::

Ales je izjavil:

Samael je izjavil:

Naj te spomnim, da po smrti ustanovitelja lila in neuspešnega poskusa njegovega brata monetizirati freenode, Christel ni bila nikoli lastnica domene, lastnica networka, lastnica nickserv podatkov uporabnikov itd... ampak je imela do tega kot former head of Freenode's staff zgolj dostop, ter prodala nekaj, kar ji je bilo zaupano v administracijo v dobro FOSS skupnosti, ni bilo pa njeno.

Čigavo je pa bilo?

Zgolj ohlapna definicija "skupnosti" ne more biti formalni lastnik nečesa. Nazadnje, ko sem gledal, je Freenode bil celo inkorporiran kot non profit. Kaj se je zgodilo s tem?

(sem on off na IRC-u praktično od začetka in malo poznam ozadje, podrobnosti pa ne...)

Ne, pa ni bil. Freenode IRC omrežje ni imel formalnopravno urejenega statusa. Zaradi organizacije konferenc (Freenode Live) so pred časom ustanovili Freenode Ltd, ki pa ni bil neposredno povezan z delovanjem Freenode IRC omrežja. Takratna vodja Freenode ekipe Christel Dahlskjaer, ki je bila v času prenosa domene zaposlena pri Private Internet Access (VPN podjetje Andrewa Lee-ja) je Freenode Ltd uporabila zgolj kot trojanca za prenos domene Andrewu.

Z inkorporacijo si najbrž mislil Peer-Directed Projects Center, ki ga je z namenom podpore pri izvajanju raznih free and open source software pojektov registriral mislim, da še prvotni pokojni ustanovitelj Freenoda Robert Levin (aka lilo) in ki je bil skoraj 10 let nazaj razpuščen.
Samael != Samuel

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Samael ()

Samael ::

Mimogrede, a katero večjih IRC omrežij sploh ima urejen formalno pravni status? Kolikor vem, so večinoma vodeni s strani volunterjev preko njihovih interno sprejetih statutov in pravil. Freenode po smrti lila in neuspešnega poskusa njegove brata leta 2006 monetizirati ga, ni bil v tem pogledu nič drugačen.



Tale možakar, Andrew se je kar konkretno angažiral okoli IRCa. Pred časom je že prevzel IRC omrežje Snoonet. Nato prišel do domene irc.com (ne poznam ozadja zgodbe). Zdaj Freenode ... Držte ga stran od SiOFF-a!! :D
Samael != Samuel

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Samael ()

Ales ::

Skupnosti in njihova pravila že lahko "vodijo" nekaj, ne pomeni pa to kar privzeto, da so zaradi tega lastniki domen ali infrastrukture ali podatkov na njej, ali da dejansko kaj odločajo glede tega.

To so tri različne stvari.

Me prav zanima, kako je potekalo sosledje lastništva domen Freenodea in na podlagi česa se je lastništvo uradno menjalo. To bi že marsikaj razložilo. Enako me zanima, kdo je sploh lastnik infrastrukture in kdo podatkov na njej.

Je čisto možno, da je lastništvo domen menjal nekdo brez pooblastila prejšnjega lastnika, če je imel dostop do nastavitev. Po drugi strani pa je tudi čisto možnost, da nekateri admini skupnosti zmotno mislijo, da so upravičeni do nečesa ali do odločanja o nečem, do cesar nikoli v bistvu niso bili, še manj pa je bilo njihovo.

Zavoljo članov IRC upam, da bo ta, ne vem katera po vrsti drama okoli IRC, povzročila čim manjši osip in drobljenje članov & kanalov...

LeQuack ::

Ales je izjavil:


Zavoljo članov IRC upam, da bo ta, ne vem katera po vrsti drama okoli IRC, povzročila čim manjši osip in drobljenje članov & kanalov...


Tudi jaz, sploh ker so alternative toliko slabše. Vse gre v smeri proprietary zadev, oglasov, kraje podatkov, itd.
Quack !

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: LeQuack ()

Samael ::

Ales je izjavil:

Skupnosti in njihova pravila že lahko "vodijo" nekaj, ne pomeni pa to kar privzeto, da so zaradi tega lastniki domen ali infrastrukture ali podatkov na njej, ali da dejansko kaj odločajo glede tega.

Saj to je jasno samo po sebi, le da pozabljaš na samo specifiko IRCa. Če, kot praviš, poznaš IRC, potem najbrž tudi veš, da se vsaj kar se večjih omrežij tiče, pri administraciji nikoli ni šlo za formalno lastiti si ga, ampak s takšnimi ali drugačnimi osebnimi motivi posameznikov se vključiti v sistem, ga volontersko vzdrževati, prispevati, razvijati ...
Kaj misliš, kdo si danes formalno lasti EFnet. Kdo si formalno lasti IRCnet (v katerega je trenutno vključenih 52 strežnikov)?
Nihče.
Razlika med tema dvema omrežjema in Freenodom je (če pustimo tehnični aspekt ob strani) zgolj v tem, da gre pri prvih dneh za povsem decentralizirane koščke sveta, ki tvorijo celoto in kjer je pod nekimi skupno izoblikovanimi pravili vsak oper (admin) šerif na svojem serverju, ki ga (s pomočjo sponzorjev, organizacij, fakultet, inštitutov...) prispeva v omrežje, medtem ko je Freenode v kontekstu vodenja deloval deloval bolj centralizirano, so administratorji demokratično volili telesa networka itd ... lastil si ga ni pa nihče, saj v končni fazi ni šlo za registrirano družbo in tu je težava, ker ti to mešaš. Serverji in vse v zvezi s tem, je bilo donirano v omrežje s strani različnih organizacij. Software so razvijali in uporabniško bazo vzdrževali operaterji sami na temelju prostovoljstva.

Zakomplicira se pa, ko pridemo do same domene, kjer nekdo mora biti naveden kot lastnik (in ne, to ni treba, da je podjetje, lahko je fizična oseba) in kar je bilo po smrti ustanovitelja lila zaupano Christel (kot med admini izglasovani vodji ekipe), ki je to skrivoma prenesla na Freenode Ltd (za katerega poudarjam, ni imel nobenega nadzora nad IRC omrežjem in je bil registriran za povsem drugi namen) in le tega prodala Andrewu.
Ja, povsem razumem te, kaj praviš, ampak tule ti malce mešaš pojme. IRC network v nobenem primeru ni bil registrirana družba, domena je bila predana v skrbništvo demokratično izvoljene vodje ekipe v dobri veri, da bo delovala v korist celotne FOSS skupnosti, ta pa je svoj položaj zlorabila in domeno prodala podjetju.
Pri tem pa ne pozabi, da samo lastništvo domene ne determinira samega lastništva doniranih serverjev, ne uporabniške baze. Zato govorimo o take-overju. Nihče tu ni doniral serverja bilo kakšnemu formalnemu podjetju, da bi si ga to lahko zdaj lastilo. Noben skrbnikov sistema, ni bil tu zaposlen. So pa sami demokratično odločali o vsem v povezavi z vodenjem in vzdrževanjem omrežja. Vse je potekalo na bazi prostovoljstva.

Kolikor sem bral raznorazne loge, je bil tu dalje problem predvsem v tem, da operaterji, ki so skozi dve desetletji tvorili jedro administracije omrežja enostavno nimajo dovolj denarja, da bi se legalno po sodiščih preganjali z multimiljarderjem oz. njegovo odvetniško ekipo.
Samael != Samuel

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Samael ()

Samael ::

Ales je izjavil:

Enako me zanima, kdo je sploh lastnik infrastrukture in kdo podatkov na njej.


@jess: infrastructure is totally donated
@jess: by various volunteering sponsors from many walks of life
@jess: some companies, some individuals, none of our infrastructure currently belongs to the people claiming to own the network
@Fuchs: in case of freenode it was usually potential sponsors contacting us, we told them what we'd need, they provided, we pulled the server into our config management and had a test run, and then included it
@jess: sponsors own the servers
@jess: companies, individuals, etc donate servers to us to run IRC nodes on. the access to those servers is held by the long-term established internal infrastructure team


<@jess> volunteer freenode staff have been running the place through thick and thin for very many years for absolutely free
<@jess> and operational control moving under the direct control of a for-profit enterprise makes me sick to my stomach
<@jess> infrastructure is totally donated
<@jess> by various volunteering sponsors from many walks of life
<@jess> some companies, some individuals, none of our infrastructure currently belongs to the people claiming to own the network
<@amdj> the hardware is owned by the sponsors.
<@Fuchs> and as per that, we obviously can't just hand access over or data to people demanding for it
<@kline> no freenode staff have contracts with the ltd company
<@kline> etc
<@jess> and actually having the network run by someone willing bribe people with olines makes me sick to my stomach
< terpri> Fuchs, i fully agree, if anyone should "own" freenode it's the volunteers who've kept it running for 20+ years
< phy1729> Can rasengan just be k-lined so we can go about our day?
< rasengan> I didn't cease control. Control was ceased from freenode limited.
<@Fuchs> rasengan: as you wrote yourself, freenode limited never had operational control over freenode
<@FireFly> but that was a while back
<@Fuchs> I mean, I've been doing this for 10 years, I'd know
< rasengan> Wrong Fuchs. Freenode limited always did. And I helped whenever asked.
<@Fuchs> rasengan: there seems to be your word against, well, the people who ran this network for the past years
< Church-> Fuchs: So out of curiosity, what's the process for donating infra anyway vis a vis this net/new net?
<@Fuchs> Church-: in case of freenode it was usually potential sponsors contacting us, we told them what we'd need, they provided, we pulled the server into our config management and had a test run, and then included it
<@jess> sponsors own the servers
<@jess> companies, individuals, etc donate servers to us to run IRC nodes on. the access to those servers is held by the long-term established internal infrastructure team
< Ariadne> christel threw us all under the bus and gave the domain over to mr. "CEO of freenode" over there
Samael != Samuel

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenilo: Samael ()

jlpktnst ::

Pa dobro, za prostovoljce tam notri je to oreng osebna drama.

Če prav razumem torej, domeno si sedaj lasti ena firma. To je pa tudi vse.

Sponzorji bodo lepo wipal serverje.

Prostovojci bodo dobili novo domeno.

Korejc je zmetal dnar v zrak.

Razen I guess tisti ki so v USA in podobnih državah, njih lahko stoži v mrtve, tudi če nima podlage. Pri nas tudi? Ne vem.

Matthai ::

Ja, en problem je, da operaterji (prostovoljci) nimajo dovolj denarja in predvsem volje, da bi se legalno po sodiščih preganjali z multimiljarderjem oz. njegovo odvetniško ekipo.

Po drugi strani pa multimilijarder ne razume, da domena in serverji ne štejejo dosti. Največ vreden je community. In tega ni tako lahko "zamenjati", če se ti spunta. Lahko sicer najame plačano osebje, ampak mu bo žrlo precej denarja - stroški osebja so precej večji kot stroški železja - poleg tega se bo verjetno poznalo, če ti ljudje ne bodo delali s srcem ampak zgolj za denar.

Zato se splača poslušati ljudi, ki tvorijo community in delajo prostovoljno. Če ne, se vrednost tvoje investicije hitro zmanjša...
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain...
Time to die.

LeQuack ::

Zakaj pa lahko Facebook in ostale zle organizacije zmečejo milijarde v maltretiranje uporabnikov, pa jih še zmeraj ne odženejo? Medtem pa na IRCu en užali drugega in zgubi cel community. Kaj nam to pove o ljudeh?
Quack !

Samael ::

LeQuack je izjavil:

Medtem pa na IRCu en užali drugega in zgubi cel community.

Nimam pojma o čem govoriš oz. kako si si ti namislil to zgodbo.
Samael != Samuel

Matthai ::

Na Freenodu se zbirajo ljudje, ki nesebično dajejo svoje znanje in čas skupnosti.

Na Facebooku se zbirajo patološki narcisi. Morda zato?
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain...
Time to die.

Zgodovina sprememb…

  • spremenil: Matthai ()

Gagatronix ::

Ah ta freenode, kar naprej neka drama.


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