Forum » Loža » Primerjava vojaške tehnike
Primerjava vojaške tehnike
Temo vidijo: vsi
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Poldi112 ::
>Pa tiste, ki gredo v vojsko zaradi socialne stiske ne štejem kot prostovoljce.
Takih je večina.
>Ti si bil kdaj v profesionalni vojski?
Saj lahko rečeš ne, ni nobena sramota.
>Operaterji morajo po napadu še analizirat posledice, da ocenijo uspešnost. Za marsikoga je to too much.
Kaj hočeš reči, da nisem edini, ki ne loči, da je ubijanje koristno dejanje? Da pilot rad raketira vodnjak, noče pa potem krožit nad njim, ker to je pa too much? Ker ni dost akcije, ki si jo tako želijo? Kljub temu, da večinoma samo trenirajo (aka letijo simulacije in uživajo v tem)?
Takih je večina.
>Ti si bil kdaj v profesionalni vojski?
Saj lahko rečeš ne, ni nobena sramota.
>Operaterji morajo po napadu še analizirat posledice, da ocenijo uspešnost. Za marsikoga je to too much.
Kaj hočeš reči, da nisem edini, ki ne loči, da je ubijanje koristno dejanje? Da pilot rad raketira vodnjak, noče pa potem krožit nad njim, ker to je pa too much? Ker ni dost akcije, ki si jo tako želijo? Kljub temu, da večinoma samo trenirajo (aka letijo simulacije in uživajo v tem)?
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
vostok_1 ::
>Pa tiste, ki gredo v vojsko zaradi socialne stiske ne štejem kot prostovoljce.
Takih je večina.
>Ti si bil kdaj v profesionalni vojski?
Saj lahko rečeš ne, ni nobena sramota.
>Operaterji morajo po napadu še analizirat posledice, da ocenijo uspešnost. Za marsikoga je to too much.
Kaj hočeš reči, da nisem edini, ki ne loči, da je ubijanje koristno dejanje? Da pilot rad raketira vodnjak, noče pa potem krožit nad njim, ker to je pa too much? Ker ni dost akcije, ki si jo tako želijo? Kljub temu, da večinoma samo trenirajo (aka letijo simulacije in uživajo v tem)?
Takih je večina mogoče v pehoti.
Še posebej ne v Top Gun enoti. Da bi tam ljudje šli zgolj in samo zato ker radi letijo...oh lol. Kaj takega.
Jz sem gledal intervjuje z piloti in še noben ni bil "veš, šel sem skozi ves ta trening, zato da bom lahko malo letel na poligonu".
Samo psihopati namerno streljajo na civiliste. Večini to ni priljubljeno početje. Ampak ko gre zagotovo za soldate, potem moralna spornost izgine oz. je prestavljena na mnoga mnoga leta kasneje.
Skratka...tako bluzenje kot, ga ti delaš...še nisem slišal. Ampak ni da pričakujem drugače.
Lahko le rečem, hvala bogu da nisi vodja SWAT enote. Tam v tisti diskoteki ne bi samo genitalij tlačili v usta žrtev, ampak še kaj hujšega.
There will be chutes!
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: vostok_1 ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Poldi112 ::
Nisem rekel, da gredo za pilota samo zato, ker radi letijo. Ti si rekel, da ga ni pilota, ki si ne želi akcije...
>Lahko le rečem, hvala bogu da nisi vodja SWAT enote. Tam v tisti diskoteki ne bi samo genitalij tlačili v usta žrtev, ampak še kaj hujšega.
Kolega, a si mal neresen?
>Lahko le rečem, hvala bogu da nisi vodja SWAT enote. Tam v tisti diskoteki ne bi samo genitalij tlačili v usta žrtev, ampak še kaj hujšega.
Kolega, a si mal neresen?
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Poldi112 ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
bleem ::
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
vostok_1 ::
Nisem rekel, da gredo za pilota samo zato, ker radi letijo. Ti si rekel, da ga ni pilota, ki si ne želi akcije...
In sem imel prav.
Večina pilotov si želi akcije. Ti pač to razumeš kot, da si vsak želi masovno pobijat afganistanske otroke med dopoldanskim igranjem na igrišču.
There will be chutes!
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Poldi112 ::
Žal je to njihova glavna naloga. Dogfighti so pač stvar preteklosti. In ne, nisi imel prav.
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Invictus ::
Žal je to njihova glavna naloga. Dogfighti so pač stvar preteklosti. In ne, nisi imel prav.
To je bilo že dostikrat rečeno...
Samo do naslednjič, ko bodo spet srečali enakovrednega nasprotnika
![;)](https://static.slo-tech.com/smeski/icon_wink.gif)
Takrat bodo izklopili vse radarje, vse IFF transponderje, AWACS bo daleč stran, in uveden bo strikten radio silence.
Na koncu bodo letele IR rakete preko IR senzorjev, in topovi
![;)](https://static.slo-tech.com/smeski/icon_wink.gif)
"Life is hard; it's even harder when you're stupid."
http://goo.gl/2YuS2x
http://goo.gl/2YuS2x
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Invictus ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
vostok_1 ::
Žal je to njihova glavna naloga. Dogfighti so pač stvar preteklosti. In ne, nisi imel prav.
Riight...
There will be chutes!
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
Glavna hiba jao kitajskega lovca je manjkajoci top....Tak pravjo americani...
ps, pa ta teden je zavrescalo da runda kitajskega railguna kosta 35k$.
ps, pa ta teden je zavrescalo da runda kitajskega railguna kosta 35k$.
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
7982884e ::
si ti malo "challenged"? sem ti, tebi prilagojeno, napisal da so tisto gor samo koncepti, ki nimajo veze z vojsko. to je nek umetnik 5 let nazaj ustvaril in od takrat naprej mediji okoli nosijo. in da v clanku, ki si ga nalimal, nikjer ne pise, da je tak dejanski requirement.
v spodnjem stavku sem tocno napisal, da verjetno se vedno bosta dva motorja. ampak ker ti malo "challenged" v tem vidis nevem kaksen argument nasprotno.
Ja super,
Še en otrok, ki komentira out of sinquenc, potem pa misli da ne bo trollalala..
Še en krat preberi zakaj sem napisal dva motorje, potem odgovor na nivoju Trumpovega dosega s strani Smrekia, nakar se ti zapičiš v čisti idiotizem.
Samo za to ker zraven mojega avatarja vidiš napis, persona non Grata, še ne pomeni da sem debil s katerim boš ti vodil argumentirano debato brez repa in glave.
Mora bo pa tebi na koncu ratal, utemeljiti na ne Trumpi način, zakaj dva motorja nista potrebna, in da so Kanadčani budale, ker rabijo letalno napravo z dvema motorjema.
ti si zacel z nekimi oznakami lol, zato ker sem ti povedal da v clanku, ki si ga sam linkal, nikjer ne pise nic o dveh motorjih, in da so slicice neuradni koncepti.
in sem (zdej ze tretjic) povedal da tudi sam mislim, da bo naslednik F-22 imel dva motorja, da pa ni nujno. zanesljivost motorja tukaj ne igra vec velike veze, ker so, sploh po zacetnih letih, ti motorji zelo zanesljivi. je pa en mocnejsi motor ponavadi cenejsi kot dva sibkejsa, enostavnejsi za vzdrzevanje itd. primer F-35 napram kitajskem J-31, ki ima kljub dvema motorjema manj potiska.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany will pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing's F/A-18 fighter jet to replace its Tornado warplanes, knocking Lockheed Martin's F-35 stealth fighter out of a tender worth billions of euros, Defence Ministry sources said on Thursday
pozabil dodati, oba sta dvomotorca...
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Mr.B ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Pac-Man ::
O ameriškem umiku iz INF. Avtor predava jedrsko strategijo na mornariškem faksu.
https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status...
Okay, everyone, I'm going to explain why the INF Treaty even existed and why it's an idiotic move to dump it and think we can replicate our success against the USSR in the 1980s all over again. Mute or turn off notifications if you don't want this mini-lecture.
The problem centers around "extended deterrence." How do you convince your opponent you'll respond to an attack on your allies as you would an attack on yourself? You can *say* that you will treat invading Bonn like it's an invasion of New York, but how do you make it stick? NATO had this problem because it was grossly outnumbered during the Cold War. So we said: Well, we'll nuke you. The Soviets said: "Whatever. You won't trade Chicago for Frankfurt." For us to jump from "war in Europe" to "nuking Leningrad" was a stretch. We had a gap. We had "battlefield" nukes for affecting the course of battles (like tank engagements) and "strategic" nukes for US vs USSR strikes. We needed something in between, which would strike Soviet forces in Eastern Europe as a step toward all-out war.
Both sides developed "theater" nukes that could strike far in the rear of each alliance, and thus provide a link from Europe to all-out nuclear war. This is why they were a deterrent: because they made it, paradoxically, easier to get from "shots fired" to "Moscow melted."
In the 1970s, the Soviets (as usual) tried to get the upper hand in this competition and fielded a much more accurate, mobile version of these weapons, a strategically insane move that was even opposed by the Soviet diplomatic establishment. But Moscow's generals got their way. These Soviet weapons were so menacing that NATO came together in the late 70s - yes, at the behest of Carter, not Reagan - to field a responding system that could also drop a nuke down a rabbit hole (or on Moscow) almost immediately. This was an *immensely* dangerous time.
By the 1980s, war in Europe could go to all-out nuclear war in minutes. But here's what was *different*: We put those weapons in Europe *in the path of a Soviet invasion.* We told the Soviets: "If you come in, we'll have no choice. It'll be your doing, not ours." In other words, deterrence relied on the Soviets triggering a "use or lose" crisis, rather than relying on some steely-eyed decision in Washington to unleash hell. That made a huge difference. Maybe a POTUS would lose his nerve...but what about the guys about to be overrun?
This was a good move, because it made the link from war in Europe to the end of the USSR a lot more credible. Deterrence was, in a way, taken out of our hands, and nuclear war would be the fault of the Soviets for invading, whether we wanted it or not, and they knew it.
And there's the hitch: today, we're not defending against some massive Soviet invasion anymore. The targets for most of the old US INF were areas that are now part of NATO. Now, a new US INF would have only one target: Russia. Today, there's no "Warsaw Pact" to fight this out on. If we use INF, we'll be hitting inside Russia. If you think that this is a good idea, well, te salud, Don Corleone, because there's no way the Russians will sit around and just take a nuke strike inside Russia.
Likewise, in Asia, we have nowhere to put these weapons if we develop them again. (Japan? South Korea? Uh, no.) And the only targets for them will be in China itself. There's no "theater" in which we'll be striking; in both Russia and China, these will be strategic strikes. Or, put another way, the Russians and the Chinese will have to *assume* these are strategic strikes, especially if we do something ludicrous like put the new INF on submarines. "Oh, that launch? Just a theater strike. Don't overreact." Sure. Good luck with that.
What will deter Russia? If they know they'd lose a conventional action of any size. But we don't like spending money on expensive troops and guns, so instead, we're letting the Russians bait us into a nuclear standoff that benefits *them*, because of the home turf advantage. Without the trigger of INF placed in the way of advancing Russian armies - and no one's going to do that, unless you think we should line the Polish and Baltic borders with nukes - we're left with a *discretionary* force that relies solely on our promise to go nuclear.
This is the situation we were trying to get *out of* in the 60s, that we solved briefly in the 80s (at the risk of a holocaust), and that Reagan got us out of as soon he could. We're now the conventionally superior power - but we're acting like it's 1975.
And trying to replicate the 1980s in Europe by doing it again in Asia is mindless and ahistorical, the kind of thing wargamers come up when they treat nuclear weapons like a big game of Risk. You want to worry China? Build more ships, not more nukes that you won't use.
Dumping the INF Treaty has long been a cherished idea among guys like Bolton who hate treaties, and nuclear enthusiasts who think you can pop off a couple of dozen small nukes and not escalate to Armageddon. No Dem or GOP administration wanted that until now, so here we are.
In sum, we don't know what we're doing. We're not thinking about why we would go to war, what scenarios we're trying to defeat. We're just playing tit for tat, without even knowing why. We're just flailing around, alienating our own NATO allies, then pretending we're tough. Worse, we've come to believe that everything worked out fine in the 1980s, when in fact guys on both sides had to change their shorts when all that was over. We got by that with careful leadership and some basic luck. I guess now all that's left is to buy stock in Vault-Tec.
https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status...
Okay, everyone, I'm going to explain why the INF Treaty even existed and why it's an idiotic move to dump it and think we can replicate our success against the USSR in the 1980s all over again. Mute or turn off notifications if you don't want this mini-lecture.
The problem centers around "extended deterrence." How do you convince your opponent you'll respond to an attack on your allies as you would an attack on yourself? You can *say* that you will treat invading Bonn like it's an invasion of New York, but how do you make it stick? NATO had this problem because it was grossly outnumbered during the Cold War. So we said: Well, we'll nuke you. The Soviets said: "Whatever. You won't trade Chicago for Frankfurt." For us to jump from "war in Europe" to "nuking Leningrad" was a stretch. We had a gap. We had "battlefield" nukes for affecting the course of battles (like tank engagements) and "strategic" nukes for US vs USSR strikes. We needed something in between, which would strike Soviet forces in Eastern Europe as a step toward all-out war.
Both sides developed "theater" nukes that could strike far in the rear of each alliance, and thus provide a link from Europe to all-out nuclear war. This is why they were a deterrent: because they made it, paradoxically, easier to get from "shots fired" to "Moscow melted."
In the 1970s, the Soviets (as usual) tried to get the upper hand in this competition and fielded a much more accurate, mobile version of these weapons, a strategically insane move that was even opposed by the Soviet diplomatic establishment. But Moscow's generals got their way. These Soviet weapons were so menacing that NATO came together in the late 70s - yes, at the behest of Carter, not Reagan - to field a responding system that could also drop a nuke down a rabbit hole (or on Moscow) almost immediately. This was an *immensely* dangerous time.
By the 1980s, war in Europe could go to all-out nuclear war in minutes. But here's what was *different*: We put those weapons in Europe *in the path of a Soviet invasion.* We told the Soviets: "If you come in, we'll have no choice. It'll be your doing, not ours." In other words, deterrence relied on the Soviets triggering a "use or lose" crisis, rather than relying on some steely-eyed decision in Washington to unleash hell. That made a huge difference. Maybe a POTUS would lose his nerve...but what about the guys about to be overrun?
This was a good move, because it made the link from war in Europe to the end of the USSR a lot more credible. Deterrence was, in a way, taken out of our hands, and nuclear war would be the fault of the Soviets for invading, whether we wanted it or not, and they knew it.
And there's the hitch: today, we're not defending against some massive Soviet invasion anymore. The targets for most of the old US INF were areas that are now part of NATO. Now, a new US INF would have only one target: Russia. Today, there's no "Warsaw Pact" to fight this out on. If we use INF, we'll be hitting inside Russia. If you think that this is a good idea, well, te salud, Don Corleone, because there's no way the Russians will sit around and just take a nuke strike inside Russia.
Likewise, in Asia, we have nowhere to put these weapons if we develop them again. (Japan? South Korea? Uh, no.) And the only targets for them will be in China itself. There's no "theater" in which we'll be striking; in both Russia and China, these will be strategic strikes. Or, put another way, the Russians and the Chinese will have to *assume* these are strategic strikes, especially if we do something ludicrous like put the new INF on submarines. "Oh, that launch? Just a theater strike. Don't overreact." Sure. Good luck with that.
What will deter Russia? If they know they'd lose a conventional action of any size. But we don't like spending money on expensive troops and guns, so instead, we're letting the Russians bait us into a nuclear standoff that benefits *them*, because of the home turf advantage. Without the trigger of INF placed in the way of advancing Russian armies - and no one's going to do that, unless you think we should line the Polish and Baltic borders with nukes - we're left with a *discretionary* force that relies solely on our promise to go nuclear.
This is the situation we were trying to get *out of* in the 60s, that we solved briefly in the 80s (at the risk of a holocaust), and that Reagan got us out of as soon he could. We're now the conventionally superior power - but we're acting like it's 1975.
And trying to replicate the 1980s in Europe by doing it again in Asia is mindless and ahistorical, the kind of thing wargamers come up when they treat nuclear weapons like a big game of Risk. You want to worry China? Build more ships, not more nukes that you won't use.
Dumping the INF Treaty has long been a cherished idea among guys like Bolton who hate treaties, and nuclear enthusiasts who think you can pop off a couple of dozen small nukes and not escalate to Armageddon. No Dem or GOP administration wanted that until now, so here we are.
In sum, we don't know what we're doing. We're not thinking about why we would go to war, what scenarios we're trying to defeat. We're just playing tit for tat, without even knowing why. We're just flailing around, alienating our own NATO allies, then pretending we're tough. Worse, we've come to believe that everything worked out fine in the 1980s, when in fact guys on both sides had to change their shorts when all that was over. We got by that with careful leadership and some basic luck. I guess now all that's left is to buy stock in Vault-Tec.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Isotropic ::
piloti zapuščajo USAF zaradi zelo slabih plač, mislim da morajo biti (vsaj juniorji) tudi na food stampsih (familije, ne neki young guns, ki so lahko ves čas na bazi).
kako je z INF, ne vem, se pa rusi bojijo, da bodo sčasoma ameri imeli take rakete, da bodo lahko prestregle ruske v boost fazi. mislim da rabiš za to (za današnje ruske rakete + malo faktorja varnosti) ~5-7 mach. nevarne so sicer še tiste na podmornicah, so pa ameri veliko boljši v zalezovanju ruskih. zraven je treba upoštevati še vedno slabše ruske budgete in dejstvo, da so imele ruske rakete vsaj včasih težave (bulava - več ponesrečenih testov).
danes to sicer še ne pomeni veliko, leta 2035 pa bo.
zato rusi zdaj grozijo z avantgard in tistim torpedom, ker vejo, da je edina šansa zanje MAD. sploh ko bo 2035 kakšen naslednik trumpa v pisarni in bodo utemeljevali idejo, da bi lahko preživeli jedrsko vojno proti rusiji z zelo malo škode zanje. (problem je, da bo to takrat najbrž res)
kako je z INF, ne vem, se pa rusi bojijo, da bodo sčasoma ameri imeli take rakete, da bodo lahko prestregle ruske v boost fazi. mislim da rabiš za to (za današnje ruske rakete + malo faktorja varnosti) ~5-7 mach. nevarne so sicer še tiste na podmornicah, so pa ameri veliko boljši v zalezovanju ruskih. zraven je treba upoštevati še vedno slabše ruske budgete in dejstvo, da so imele ruske rakete vsaj včasih težave (bulava - več ponesrečenih testov).
danes to sicer še ne pomeni veliko, leta 2035 pa bo.
zato rusi zdaj grozijo z avantgard in tistim torpedom, ker vejo, da je edina šansa zanje MAD. sploh ko bo 2035 kakšen naslednik trumpa v pisarni in bodo utemeljevali idejo, da bi lahko preživeli jedrsko vojno proti rusiji z zelo malo škode zanje. (problem je, da bo to takrat najbrž res)
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Isotropic ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
piloti zapuščajo USAF zaradi zelo slabih plač, mislim da morajo biti (vsaj juniorji) tudi na food stampsih (familije, ne neki young guns, ki so lahko ves čas na bazi).
kako je z INF, ne vem, se pa rusi bojijo, da bodo sčasoma ameri imeli take rakete, da bodo lahko prestregle ruske v boost fazi. mislim da rabiš za to (za današnje ruske rakete + malo faktorja varnosti) ~5-7 mach. nevarne so sicer še tiste na podmornicah, so pa ameri veliko boljši v zalezovanju ruskih. zraven je treba upoštevati še vedno slabše ruske budgete in dejstvo, da so imele ruske rakete vsaj včasih težave (bulava - več ponesrečenih testov).
danes to sicer še ne pomeni veliko, leta 2035 pa bo.
zato rusi zdaj grozijo z avantgard in tistim torpedom, ker vejo, da je edina šansa zanje MAD. sploh ko bo 2035 kakšen naslednik trumpa v pisarni.
?
O čem ti to... V tem trenutku je za američane INF sporazuma samo hendikap, ker ne smejo na rakete nameščati jedrskih konic, ter seveda uporabljati "majhnih"jederskih exploziv... Kaj misliš, koliko je stalo samo lanskoletno 135 kosov raket ki so v luft vrgle tri bajte ?
Sicer pa me zanima kateri del sporazuma kršijo rusi... ?
PS: Streljanje na bust fazo z raketami je retardet... Rusi imajo dovolj opreme daleč, preč da bodo ruske raktete če krepko nat 100km ko bodo... No verjetno je tu igra oboroževanja vesolja...
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
7982884e ::
Vecino imajo se vedno v evropskem delu Rusije, kjer bi jih teoreticno lahko prestregli Aegis ashore interceptorji, ce bi jih po Romuniji, Poljskem in baltskih drzavah instalirali par sto. Plus seveda Aegis rusilci v baltskem in crnem morju. Sicer se vedno premalo da bi koncept MAD odpovedal, ampak ker obstaja teoreticna moznost, da bi kak naslednik Trumpa v tej smeri nadaljeval Reaganov Star Wars, se Rusi jasno adaptirajo.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenilo: 7982884e ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Poldi112 ::
>da bi lahko preživeli jedrsko vojno proti rusiji z zelo malo škode zanje. (problem je, da bo to takrat najbrž res)
Ja? Misliš da bodo do takrat rešili Nuclear winter problem?
Ja? Misliš da bodo do takrat rešili Nuclear winter problem?
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
Vecino imajo se vedno v evropskem delu Rusije, kjer bi jih teoreticno lahko prestregli Aegis ashore interceptorji, ce bi jih po Romuniji, Poljskem in baltskih drzavah instalirali par sto. Plus seveda Aegis rusilci v baltskem in crnem morju. Sicer se vedno premalo da bi koncept MAD odpovedal, ampak ker obstaja teoreticna moznost, da bi kak naslednik Trumpa v tej smeri nadaljeval Reaganov Star Wars, se Rusi jasno adaptirajo.
Kolikor vem, je ta sistem bil uspešen prestreči eno tomahawk raketo ki je letela na 100m višine. Problem za ruse je BGM-109 Tomahawk ki se jo da izstreliti vertikalon z jedersko konico.
Pri eskalaciji, bodo rusi prvo vse te sisteme uničili, tako da so vredni en k.razen laserja pri odvračanju
![:))](https://static.slo-tech.com/smeski/icon_lol.gif)
![:))](https://static.slo-tech.com/smeski/icon_lol.gif)
![:))](https://static.slo-tech.com/smeski/icon_lol.gif)
>da bi lahko preživeli jedrsko vojno proti rusiji z zelo malo škode zanje. (problem je, da bo to takrat najbrž res)
Ja? Misliš da bodo do takrat rešili Nuclear winter problem?
Tako kot je Pac-Man prilepil, slabo izobraženi tipa trumpi misli da bo z manjšimi bombicami rešil nevarnost bombe.
Rusi lahko ob eskalaciji v luft vržejo dve tri bombice po 20 MB pri tundri, Večina sodobnega zahodnega FB & Yt generacije bi odmrla.
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Mr.B ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
7982884e ::
Vecino imajo se vedno v evropskem delu Rusije, kjer bi jih teoreticno lahko prestregli Aegis ashore interceptorji, ce bi jih po Romuniji, Poljskem in baltskih drzavah instalirali par sto. Plus seveda Aegis rusilci v baltskem in crnem morju. Sicer se vedno premalo da bi koncept MAD odpovedal, ampak ker obstaja teoreticna moznost, da bi kak naslednik Trumpa v tej smeri nadaljeval Reaganov Star Wars, se Rusi jasno adaptirajo.
Kolikor vem, je ta sistem bil uspešen prestreči eno tomahawk raketo ki je letela na 100m višine.
potem slabo ves.
Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System @ Wikipedia
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
Vecino imajo se vedno v evropskem delu Rusije, kjer bi jih teoreticno lahko prestregli Aegis ashore interceptorji, ce bi jih po Romuniji, Poljskem in baltskih drzavah instalirali par sto. Plus seveda Aegis rusilci v baltskem in crnem morju. Sicer se vedno premalo da bi koncept MAD odpovedal, ampak ker obstaja teoreticna moznost, da bi kak naslednik Trumpa v tej smeri nadaljeval Reaganov Star Wars, se Rusi jasno adaptirajo.
Kolikor vem, je ta sistem bil uspešen prestreči eno tomahawk raketo ki je letela na 100m višine.
potem slabo ves.
Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System @ Wikipedia
Kot sem rekel " to make this work, the missile itself would be pretty "useless""
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Isotropic ::
O čem ti to... V tem trenutku je za američane INF sporazuma samo hendikap, ker ne smejo na rakete nameščati jedrskih konic, ter seveda uporabljati "majhnih"jederskih exploziv... Kaj misliš, koliko je stalo samo lanskoletno 135 kosov raket ki so v luft vrgle tri bajte ?
Sicer pa me zanima kateri del sporazuma kršijo rusi... ?
PS: Streljanje na bust fazo z raketami je retardet... Rusi imajo dovolj opreme daleč, preč da bodo ruske raktete če krepko nat 100km ko bodo... No verjetno je tu igra oboroževanja vesolja...
lahko še vedno uporabljajo prosto padajoče jedrske bombe, ki imajo tudi nastavljiv yield, tako da to ni poseben problem.
ob morebitni vojni bodo pač sestrelili, kar je možno, poslali jedrske rakete na tisto, kar ne bodo mogli (bo predaleč) - to je zdaj lažje izvedljivo, ko imajo vse submarine launched rakete super-fuze https://nukewatch.org/modernization.html (glej sliko približno na pol strani) in jih bodo porabili dosti manj kot za klasično nukanje (optimalna odločitev je, da malo overshootaš tarčo in imaš večjo verjetnost, da jo boš dejansko uničil).
dvomim, da bodo nukali vsako večje mesto v rusiji, samo strateške cilje in vodstvo. ob manjši porabi nukic je tudi manj možnosti za nuclear winter (ki načeloma niti ni dokazan, da bi se zares pojavil).
načeloma ni nujno, da bo ravno usa vs rusija, bo pa slednja sovražnik še dolgo časa in hkrati najbolj sposoben. bral sem tudi več člankov o vojni usa-kitajska okoli 2030 recimo.
The U.S.-China War of 2030: https://warisboring.com/the-u-s-china-w...
The avoidable war. The end of strategic engagement with China: https://asiasociety.org/sites/default/f...
https://warisboring.com/china-thinks-it...
glede učinkovitosti AEGIS itd.: ne govorim o 2020, ampak o bližnji prihodnosti. amerika bo itak še dolgo časa vlagala ogromno keša v vojsko in ni hudič, da jim ne bo uspelo enkrat. če ne njim, bo pa kitajcem.
poleg tega je v dobi hypersoničnih orožij najboljša obramba napad, ker sicer ne boš imel veliko možnosti streljati nazaj.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Isotropic ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Smrekar1 ::
piloti zapuščajo USAF zaradi zelo slabih plač, mislim da morajo biti (vsaj juniorji) tudi na food stampsih (familije, ne neki young guns, ki so lahko ves čas na bazi).
https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/US-Air...
Dvomim.
kako je z INF, ne vem, se pa rusi bojijo, da bodo sčasoma ameri imeli take rakete, da bodo lahko prestregle ruske v boost fazi. mislim da rabiš za to (za današnje ruske rakete + malo faktorja varnosti) ~5-7 mach.
Raketa je v boost fazi 5-7 minut. Če imaš lanser 1000 km stran za to rabiš povprečno nekje 20-25 mach, ker potrebuješ še nekaj časa za zaznavo, samo izstrelitev in pospeševanje rakete. Pri takih hitrostih na majhni višini potrebuješ tudi kak meter keramike, da rakete ne skuri ...
zato rusi zdaj grozijo z avantgard in tistim torpedom, ker vejo, da je edina šansa zanje MAD. sploh ko bo 2035 kakšen naslednik trumpa v pisarni in bodo utemeljevali idejo, da bi lahko preživeli jedrsko vojno proti rusiji z zelo malo škode zanje. (problem je, da bo to takrat najbrž res)
Rusi se predvsem hvalisajo z orožji, ki bolj sodijo v dela Stephena Kinga kot kam drugam.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
smreki je spet v star war modu. Mogoce bo pa trumpijo ratalo to kar reganu ni..
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
NMH ::
Jedr. Prebilič jasno povedal zakaj se gre:
https://4d.rtvslo.si/arhiv/odmevi/17459...
Na kratko: sporazum ne ustreza niti Rusiji niti ZDA, zaradi Kitajske.
https://4d.rtvslo.si/arhiv/odmevi/17459...
Na kratko: sporazum ne ustreza niti Rusiji niti ZDA, zaradi Kitajske.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- predlagal izbris: madviper ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
Fixed..
Air Force F-35's close air support gun doesn't work and only 60% of delivered jets fly
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Smrekar1 ::
Fixed..
Air Force F-35's close air support gun doesn't work and only 60% of delivered jets fly
https://thenewsrep.com/113616/report-ai...
"Availability" pomeni, da je toliko letal v določenem na voljo za operacije in ne "toliko letal leti". Avtorju članka priporočam tečaj angleškega jezika, vsem ki se niso zahehetali ob besedni zvezi "F-35 close air support gun" pa bodisi izobraževanje o tej tematiki ali prehod na lažje teme.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- predlagalo izbris: jest10 ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
Fixed..
Air Force F-35's close air support gun doesn't work and only 60% of delivered jets fly
https://thenewsrep.com/113616/report-ai...
"Availability" pomeni, da je toliko letal v določenem na voljo za operacije in ne "toliko letal leti". Avtorju članka priporočam tečaj angleškega jezika, vsem ki se niso zahehetali ob besedni zvezi "F-35 close air support gun" pa bodisi izobraževanje o tej tematiki ali prehod na lažje teme.
Ne skrbi so se odlocili za novega 100 mijonkega f15... a bo imel buil in iris skoraj zagotovo..
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
Zgodovina sprememb…
- predlagal izbris: Smrekar1 ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
vostok_1 ::
Zakaj je tako težko priznat, da je F35 overall flop od projekta?
There will be chutes!
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
It came from the lab.
Like tears in rain. Time to die. v_1 2012-21
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
NMH ::
Zakaj je tako težko priznat, da je F35 overall flop od projekta?
Ker tukaj ni nobenega, ki bi imel kakršnokoli podlago za kaj takega. So samo troli.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- predlagal izbris: madviper ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
7982884e ::
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Poldi112 ::
Vse je stvar perspektive. S strani military industrial complex-a je stvar totalen uspeh. Še en too big to fail projekt, kjer je polno enih držav udeleženih pri delitvi tega kolača in folk veselo voli tiste, ki jim omogočajo, da lahko dela na tem "socialističnem projektu". :)
Z voljaške plati je bolj neh, s poslovne pa hud flop. Ampak hej, ne moreš imeti vsega. Mal je sicer zoprno, jim stranke razkosajo novinarja, NATO zaveznik pa konstantno opozarja na to, ampak posel je posel, šiht pa šiht.
Z voljaške plati je bolj neh, s poslovne pa hud flop. Ampak hej, ne moreš imeti vsega. Mal je sicer zoprno, jim stranke razkosajo novinarja, NATO zaveznik pa konstantno opozarja na to, ampak posel je posel, šiht pa šiht.
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Pac-Man ::
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
7982884e ::
Z voljaške plati je bolj neh, s poslovne pa hud flop. Ampak hej, ne moreš imeti vsega. Mal je sicer zoprno, jim stranke razkosajo novinarja, NATO zaveznik pa konstantno opozarja na to, ampak posel je posel, šiht pa šiht.
to smo ze obdelali, in tudi dezurni kritiki F-35 so pocasi ze vecinoma potihnili. gre se za zelo dober avion, ki je imel porodne tezave kot vsak drug. ki bo kmalu cenejsi od precej starejsih in slabsih avionov.
dejanski flop od projekta je kak ruski Su-57, recimo, al pa projekt FGFA.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Poldi112 ::
Cenejši od starih ne bo, ker ima zaradi raznih premazov precej dražje vzdrževanje.
Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
Walter Lippmann, leta 1922, o predpogoju za demokracijo.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
NMH ::
F22 je naslednik F15 in F35 je nalednik F16.
Oba F22 in F35 sta neprimerno boljša od svojih predhodnikov. O kakšnih flopih eni tukaj bluzite in na podlagi česa (od kod vam to znanje in informacije??) ni jasno.
Oba F22 in F35 sta neprimerno boljša od svojih predhodnikov. O kakšnih flopih eni tukaj bluzite in na podlagi česa (od kod vam to znanje in informacije??) ni jasno.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- predlagalo izbris: Truga ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
F22 je naslednik F15 in F35 je nalednik F16.
Oba F22 in F35 sta neprimerno boljša od svojih predhodnikov. O kakšnih flopih eni tukaj bluzite in na podlagi česa (od kod vam to znanje in informacije??) ni jasno.
Ne razumem, kaj je tak problem narediti nov modul ki ne bo baziran na starem intel procu ? Ker resnicno ne vidim potem smisla o teh x generacihah bojnih letal, ko sedaj kupujejo f15x z ir iskalnikom za 100 miljonov na kos, ce je pa ka full drag ta f15 za vzdrzevanje. verjetno f22 itak vecino casa leti brez stelth premaza ker je po vsaki misiji rabi 4 dni da se ga bojno usposobi. no pustimo da takrat itak ne bo vec protiletalske obrambe, bombice so pa itak metali tam 110km pred radarjem...sem preprican ce grejo z letalom zelo visoko da se ta doseg poveca na nekaj vec kilometrov...
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Pac-Man ::
Von Braun marca 1955. 2 leti in pol pred Sputnikom.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Pac-Man ::
Nimam časa gledat v celoti, rakete MILAN imajo v delu za vodenje 3 grame radioaktivnega torija-232, zdaj pa je na Sardiniji, kjer so jih testirali, nekaj težav.
MILAN @ Wikipedia
Isotopes of thorium @ Wikipedia
MILAN @ Wikipedia
Isotopes of thorium @ Wikipedia
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and
fiction and the distinction between true and false no longer exist.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Smrekar1 ::
Nimam časa gledat v celoti, rakete MILAN imajo v delu za vodenje 3 grame radioaktivnega torija-232, zdaj pa je na Sardiniji, kjer so jih testirali, nekaj težav.
MILAN @ Wikipedia
Isotopes of thorium @ Wikipedia
Primarno je alfa sevalec z razpolovno dobo 10 milijard let, nekaj malega je še beta razpada.
Meh. Če si na istem kontinentu kot termoelektrarna na premog te tisto verjetno precej bolj ogroža kot nekaj tisoč raket MILAN, ki so svoj torij raztresle naokoli.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
7982884e ::
Nimam časa gledat v celoti, rakete MILAN imajo v delu za vodenje 3 grame radioaktivnega torija-232, zdaj pa je na Sardiniji, kjer so jih testirali, nekaj težav.
tele statistike so dostikrat napacno zastavljene (kot je smrekar napisal, v primerjavi s cim? nekdo ki zivi v ljubljani bo imel zaradi slabega zraka vecjo smrtnost kot nekdo, ki zivi v gozdu v cernobilu). ne pravim da ni res, ne vem glede te situacije. ampak tele kolicine so zelo majhne in razstresene na veliki povrsini. je verjetno milijon drugih vecjih skodljivih ucinkov tam okol.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Smrekar1 ::
Za vtis, v premogu je povprečno 3 ppm torija in 1,5 ppm urana. V toni premoga je tako 3 grame torija, TEŠ 6 naj bi skuril dobrih 70 000 ton premoga letno. Čez palec je to zanesljivo več premoga v Sloveniji, kot bi ga dobili če bi letno v Sloveniji izstrelili 7000 raket MILAN, vsako leto, 40 let. Torij-232 je daleč najpogostejši izotop (99,98%), tako da je prava številka verjetno bližje 70 000 raket MILAN letno, 40 let.
7000 teh raket je tudi nekje 3500 odprtih kozerv letno. Takih izgub še Stalinova Rdeča Armada ne bi prenesla prav dolgo. Prava obremenitev s Torijem je verjetno 10x višja.
Obremenitev z uranom tu še ni vračunana. TEŠ 6 ni edina TE na območju Slovenije.
7000 teh raket je tudi nekje 3500 odprtih kozerv letno. Takih izgub še Stalinova Rdeča Armada ne bi prenesla prav dolgo. Prava obremenitev s Torijem je verjetno 10x višja.
Obremenitev z uranom tu še ni vračunana. TEŠ 6 ni edina TE na območju Slovenije.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Smrekar1 ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
Pa imao ene par banana odgovorov...
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
Zgodovina sprememb…
- predlagalo izbris: Tezaab ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
BorutK-73 ::
Teš 6 pokuri več kot 50 000 ton premoga na leto. Premogovnik ima proizvodnjo 3 milijone ton na leto in večina gre v TEŠ.
50 000 ton je mogoče na mesec za 6 blok.
50 000 ton je mogoče na mesec za 6 blok.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: BorutK-73 ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
Smrekar1 ::
Teš 6 pokuri več kot 50 000 ton premoga na leto. Premogovnik ima proizvodnjo 3 milijone ton na leto in večina gre v TEŠ.
50 000 ton je mogoče na mesec za 6 blok.
Hm, toliko? Številko sem našel v neki zgibanki, morda je bila netočna.
Kakorkoli, tistim številkam je treba dodati še nekaj ničel in bo.
Pa imao ene par banana odgovorov...
Tudi lahko ja.
Banana equivalent dose @ Wikipedia
Ekvivalent doze nekoga na Sardiniji zaradi tistega torija je reda velikosti 1 banane/življenje.
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: Smrekar1 ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
Teš 6 pokuri več kot 50 000 ton premoga na leto. Premogovnik ima proizvodnjo 3 milijone ton na leto in večina gre v TEŠ.
50 000 ton je mogoče na mesec za 6 blok.
Hm, toliko? Številko sem našel v neki zgibanki, morda je bila netočna.
Kakorkoli, tistim številkam je treba dodati še nekaj ničel in bo.
Pa imao ene par banana odgovorov...
Tudi lahko ja.
Banana equivalent dose @ Wikipedia
Ekvivalent doze nekoga na Sardiniji zaradi tistega torija je reda velikosti 1 banane/življenje.
Seveda, sedaj si ze vrgel na nivo šimpanza in njegovih banan. Do gorile ni daleč. Ta je za nameček manj inteligentna, ima pa tudi rada banane.
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
Zgodovina sprememb…
- predlagalo izbris: Tezaab ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/bel_non_grata.png)
Mr.B ::
predvsem je inteligenten tvoj argument, ja.
No brez skrbi, boš ži našel začetno nit na temo, ah sej res si kadeilec. Pluča kadilco so no radioaktivna ok ne samo nekajkrat bolj kot doze ki jih dobijo astronavti, tako da je ... ok sej res začni z bananami da boš v kontekstu....
France Rejects Genocide Accusations Against Israel in Gaza,
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
To accuse the Jewish state of genocide is to cross a moral threshold
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
borisk ::
Nimam časa gledat v celoti, rakete MILAN imajo v delu za vodenje 3 grame radioaktivnega torija-232, zdaj pa je na Sardiniji, kjer so jih testirali, nekaj težav.
mi lahko kdo opiše kakšno vlogo ima torij v delu za vodenje? če bi bilo tega veliko, bi mi bilo jasno (penetrator pri APCR strelivu, zaradi enakega vzroka kot osirumašen uran, to je velike gostote), tukaj pa je tega 3 grame, se pravi da ima vsak domači tig varilec doma več torija, kot je v tejle raketi (Do pred kratkim so se pri TIG varjenju uporabljale izključno wolfram elektrode z 2% torija).
ps. sem že našel, deluje kot tracer
As an example, radioactive Thorium-232 used as a tracer in MILAN missiles can be spread into the environment if the protective casing is broken during the impact of the missile. For these reasons, these missiles are now forbidden in Canada.
http://espace.inrs.ca/1295/1/R000652.pdf
Zgodovina sprememb…
- spremenil: borisk ()
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
LuiIII ::
Glede pomanjkanja pilotov je zadeva seveda precej dobro rešljiva: kombiniran manned/unmanned swarm. Američani so zadevo (XQ58-A Valkyrie) ravno začeli testirati. Zaenkrat je še demonstrator in ni supersonic, ampak je to zgolj vprašanje časa.
![](https://static.slo-tech.com/stili/avatar_gray.gif)
7982884e ::
zadeva zgleda precej proper; bojda 2-3 milijone po komadu, domet preko 3500 km. namen je tukaj zelo verjetno bit wingman pilotom v F-22 in sploh F-35, s po tudi 10 droni na enega lovca. posljes 3x F-35 in 20 teh dronov in ima sovraznik ze problem.
Vredno ogleda ...
Tema | Ogledi | Zadnje sporočilo | |
---|---|---|---|
Tema | Ogledi | Zadnje sporočilo | |
⊘ | Vojaška premoč na nebu-teoretični primer (strani: 1 2 3 4 5 )Oddelek: Loža | 27996 (24209) | fikus_ |
» | Neznani leteči predmet v Zagrebu morda Tu-141 (strani: 1 2 3 4 )Oddelek: Znanost in tehnologija | 19428 (11891) | D3m |
» | Poletel prvi brezpilotni soborecOddelek: Novice / Znanost in tehnologija | 10802 (8700) | gus5 |