Protesti in spopadi v Ukrajini ter Krimska kriza

Mipe je 6. sep 2014 ob 22:54 izjavil:

DarkSite je 6. sep 2014 ob 13:09 izjavil:

Tukaj se pokaže tvoj vrhunec razmišljanja.

Poglej se kdaj v ogledalo. Še bolje, posnemi se, kako tapkaš te bluzacije.

Prvič, teroristov nikoli ni bilo. Bili so samo protestniki, ki so se v odgovor na Kijevsko nasilje militarilizirali. Terorist pomeni nekoga, ki razstreljuje civile in civilne objekte.

Po tej definiciji je Kijev terorist.

militarizirali ?

A takole ?


It was still early on Monday morning in the east Ukrainian city of Kostiantynivka when the city administration and police station were visited by 20 weapons-bearing men wearing camouflage uniforms. Within a few minutes they had control of the seat of power in this city of 95,000 people between Donezk und Slavjansk. It wasn’t long before they had erected a wall of sand bags, taken down the Ukrainian flag, and hoisted the black, blue and red flag of the “Donetsk People’s Republic.”
Those who had been leading the city up to that point were either sent home or asked to stay for “constructive talks,” as the commander of the armed men later put it. “We came to guard the building and prepare the referendum,” he told Süddeutsche Zeitung.


Kakšen bo rezultat takega referenduma je potem jasno. In menda je tudi jasno da se takih protestnikov ne lotiš z običajnimi varnostnimi strukturami. Če je držijo eno zgradbo potem to še gre, če pa držijo celo regijo pa je treba poseči po bolj opremljenih enotah; beri vojski.


Članek pa tudi lepo opiše v čem je dejanski "hec" vzhodne ukrajine: oskrba Krima.

boolsheat je 7. sep 2014 ob 13:34 izjavil:

Kakšne Kijevske sile? Gre za Ukrajinsko vojsko, ki se na svojem ozemlju premika kjer se želi.

Kjer želi in pod predpostavko, da tam ni upornikov. Teh je pa vedno več.

Folk v Mariupolu se sprašuje, "pravijo, da bomo živeli v enotni, združeni Ukrajini, ampak zakaj potem Ukrajinski vojaki bežijo?".

Tarzan

Kjer želi in pod predpostavko, da tam ni upornikov. Teh je pa vedno več.

Hint:
zapri Rus-Ukr mejo in "uporniki" bodo magično izginili.

Recimo, da se vsi ruski vojaki vrnejo domov po svojem produktivnem dopustu. Še vedno ostane na desetine tisočev lokalcev z zaplenjeno vojaško mašinerijo, ki očitno ne rabijo ruske pomoči, da zbrcajo kijevsko rit.

Bo zdaj dost sprenevedanja?

Kakorkoli že, Kijevske sile silovito napadajo Donetsk potem, ko so zaradi premirja imele šanso koncentrirat svoje sile. Ste res mislili, da je Kijevu mar?

Nisi razumel moje poante? Popolnoma vseeno je, če gredo domov ali ne, ker predstavljajo zanemarljiv odstotek.

Še kar fantaziramo? Ajde, pa naredimo eksperiment. Tiste ruske vojake lepo prosimo, da za nekaj časa gredo na klop, da vidimo, kako se bo igra odvijala brez njih.

Ti rečem, da nima veze. Velik del separatistične vojske je ravno prebežnikov iz nekdanje ukrajinske vojske. Kar je ostalo od Ukrajinske vojske pa je "garda", ki jo sestavljajo desničarski skrajneži in zelenci. Pa kak zahodni plačanec tu pa tam, da meri puške v hrbte v stilu sovjetskega Stalingrada: smrt dezerterjem.

Potem pač prek njihovih telefonov pokličejo mame, da jih pridejo iskat.

...

Ti to resno? Celo Wikipedija, ki povzema bolj konzervativne podatke, navaja 10 do 20 tisoč separatistov. 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine @ Wikipedia
Potem so tu še prostovoljni "partizani", ki po uspehih separatistične vojske rastejo kot gobe po dežju.

Zakaj lažeš in zavajaš?

Ok, vidim, da se prepričanega ne da prepričati. Kar bluzi naprej svoje - drugi smo dovolj pametni, da ne nasedamo na gostilniške trditve.

Rekla-kazala? Resno? En mrtev Rus še ne pomeni, da Putin pošilja cele bataljone v Ukrajino.

Na meji so OSCE opazovalci. Doslej še niso opazili, da bi večje število vojakov prešlo mejo. Tu imaš njihova poročila: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/daily-u...

Bolj verjamem uradno priznanim opazovalcem kot branjevkam.

Prvič, dal sem ti link, beri in boš našel reportaže, ki med drugim vključujejo tudi poročila OSCE opazovalcev na meji, ki niso opazili premikov orožja.

Drugič, te tvoje branjevke niso preverile, čigave so te enote. Ali je res nemogoče, da bi separatisti svojo artilerijo premaknili v varnejše zaledje ob ruski meji? Putin nima nobenega razloga, da pošlje svojo vojsko čez mejo, sploh ker dobro ve, da ga opazujejo in so separatisti sami dovolj učinkoviti.

Occam's razor.

Mipe je 8. sep 2014 ob 08:39 izjavil:

Drugič, te tvoje branjevke niso preverile, čigave so te enote. Ali je res nemogoče, da bi separatisti svojo artilerijo premaknili v varnejše zaledje ob ruski meji?

Nemogoče je, da bi tako topništvo sploh imeli ... tako da ja, je nemogoče.

Putin nima nobenega razloga, da pošlje svojo vojsko čez mejo, sploh ker dobro ve, da ga opazujejo in so separatisti sami dovolj učinkoviti.

'Uporniki' so z obilno pomočjo plačancev in moskovskih specialcev izgubljali na celi črti. Izgubili so svojo glavno trdnjavo Sloviansk, niso uspeli zavzeti Luganskega letališča, boji so potekali v Donetsku in Lugansku, na tem so bili, da se zlomijo. Kar naenkrat so iz kdo ve kje vzniknili na tisoči svežih vojakov, z novo opremo, ki je Ukrajinska vojska nikoli ni imela (torej ni bila zajeta), ali celo opremo, ki jo uporablja samo moskovska vojska. V enem dnevu se jim je drastično dvignila sposobnost boja in ukrajinsko vojsko so hitro odrinili stran. Dodajmo še, da se je par dni pred tem preobratom samooklicani diktator pritoževal, da se lokalci nočejo boriti zanj.

Napiši razlago, ki ne vključuje pomoči iz Moskve in obrazloži vse postavke in ima manj predpostavk, kot ta, da Putin laže. Slednje ni neka slaba predpostavka, ker na Krimu JE lagal glede točno iste stvari.

Occam's razor.

Pravi, da je najverjetnejša razlaga moskovska invazija.

'Uporniki' so z obilno pomočjo plačancev in moskovskih specialcev izgubljali na celi črti. Izgubili so svojo glavno trdnjavo Sloviansk, niso uspeli zavzeti Luganskega letališča, boji so potekali v Donetsku in Lugansku, na tem so bili, da se zlomijo. Kar naenkrat so iz kdo ve kje vzniknili na tisoči svežih vojakov, z novo opremo, ki je Ukrajinska vojska nikoli ni imela (torej ni bila zajeta), ali celo opremo, ki jo uporablja samo moskovska vojska. V enem dnevu se jim je drastično dvignila sposobnost boja in ukrajinsko vojsko so hitro odrinili stran. Dodajmo še, da se je par dni pred tem preobratom samooklicani diktator pritoževal, da se lokalci nočejo boriti zanj.

Taktični umik... Menda je oni Strelnikof al kva je, pravi mali Napoleon.

http://www.rtvslo.si/svet/rusija-pricak...

Pogovori se lahko začnejo hitro, ampak končni dogovor bo rabil štampiljko EU, da ne predstavlja nobene ovire pri vstopanju Ukrajine v EU. Torej sigurno ne morejo tam militanti imeti svoje vojske še naprej in kar je še teh ostalih zadev glede ekonomskih con, to mora biti vse urejeno po EU standardih. Brez teh elementov ni dogovora.

Krim je pa druga zgodba... precej verjetno je, če dolgoročno tam ne bo nobenih sprememb, da bo Ukrajina za vstop v EU morala narediti nekaj podobnega, kot je Srbija naredila s Kosovom.

Ukrajina še lep čas ne bo videla EU, upam.

Petro Poroshenko's Tragic End
http://valdaiclub.com/near_abroad/71744...

Yanukovych is hated because he had the opportunity to prevent a massacre, but apparently failed to fulfill this relatively simple task because he and his entourage were too stupid and greedy. Compared to him, Poroshenko deserves much more hatred because he undertook to resolve a far more difficult task - to restore a disintegrating state - without the proper education, talent or team. All he did was to elevate the massacre that had already started but did not yet pass the point of no return, to an entirely new level - the highest possible in Ukraine.

[...]

When Poroshenko received nominal authority, he was the weakest figure in Ukrainian politics. He did not have a private army even at the level of Akhmetov, to say nothing of Kolomoisky. Taruta kept a tighter rain over the Donetsk Region than Poroshenko over his native Vinnitsa. The armed forces and security services were subordinate not to the commander-in-chief but to US military advisors. He did not have Tymoshenko's charisma or a small-time party team like Klitschko or Yatsenyuk. Even the IMF loans granted to Kiev were officially ensured by Yatsenyuk, not Poroshenko. Basically Poroshenko had no real levers for exercising presidential power.

He had no room for maneuver because the alternative political flank represented by the Communist Party of Ukraine and the Party of Regions (on which Yushchenko often relied during clashes with associates) had been destroyed. In the race for the most radical position, Poroshenko could not outdo his potential rivals (not only Yarosh or Tyagnybok, but even some pathetic Lyashko). Meanwhile, a regime that is lagging behind society's radicalization during revolutionary upheavals (and Ukraine is in fact witnessing a Nazi revolution) is doomed to a quick collapse.

De facto Poroshenko appeared to be a frontman who has to assume responsibility for all the horrors of the civil war and might have to part not only with politics but with life itself.

[...]

Most certainly, at the moment when the Malaysian Boeing airliner was downed (stubborn attempts by the Ukrainian authorities to thwart the investigation suggest their involvement), the United States had already known that it was unable to retain Ukraine. This was clear even to passive onlookers, not to mention the government of the country with the world's largest diplomatic corps and intelligence staff.

In effect, practically all US actions regarding Ukraine since July have been aimed at pulling its tail out of Ukraine with minimal losses. The United States has been trying not only to minimize losses but to gain bonuses from this already lost game.

[...]

All US actions during the Ukrainian crisis show that the United States understands perfectly well that Russia needs all of Ukraine (likely without the Western regions but definitely up to the Zbruch River). Washington developed its game on the premise that Russia will have to enter Ukraine. It carefully removed all other options for returning Ukraine to its pre-coup condition, and fanning up the animal brutality of Kiev's punitive machine, went all-out to prevent Putin from resisting the temptation to introduce troops.

[...]

To sum up, in July, the hotchpotch of units of the former armed forces of the old Ukraine - neo-Nazi battalions, private armies of oligarchs and simply criminal groups such as the Right Sector's Corps - had to fight against a small but efficient, equipped and continuously expanding army that could send numerous volunteers to the rear and turn them into reserves for training. These reserves appeared on the frontlines in late August and it would be ridiculous to assume that the Americans did not know about them if they knew about practically everything else.

In other words, the United States understood perfectly well that the Kiev regime would be overthrown and that formally Russian troops would not cross the border (...). The Kiev regime will be deposed by Ukrainians represented by Novorossiya self-defense fighters.

[...]

If the Americans wished to save Poroshenko, they would have advised him to draw in his troops, occupy a defensive position and commence talks. At the same time, they would have protected him against his own radicals. Self-defense units were developing their offensive slowly and, having received the relevant order, the Ukrainian troops would have had time to leave. But they have not received such an order. On the contrary, they are compelled to launch senseless suicidal attacks.

Moreover, Poroshenko dissolved Verkhovna Rada at the start of Novorossiya's offensive and the Americans did not stop it, either. Maybe Poroshenko did not even suspect that this move would sharply increase the number of his personal enemies from among the hitherto loyal segment of the Ukrainian political elite and further destabilize the situation. Most importantly, having dissolved parliament, Poroshenko remained the only source of formal power, thereby assuming all responsibility for the developments in the country. Maybe it did not occur to him to expect such consequences but the Americans knew of them and did not interfere.

[...]

As a result, on August 29-30, a crowd of far from peaceful people (including armed fighters of unbeknown units) stormed the Defense Ministry in Kiev. These people demanded not only the resignation of the defense minister but also the impeachment of Poroshenko. Indicatively, parliament was supposed to be actively involved in impeachment procedures. In other words, the already dissolved Verkhovna Rada was supposed to remove the president from power.

But this is only the beginning. Ukrainian troops have not yet suffered their major defeats. They are encircled, but not yet destroyed. They have not yet surrendered Mariupol and Novorossiya's army is not yet ready to attack Zaporozhiye. In a week or two, coffins will begin emerging from the grounds of entrapped troops and scared-to-death "heroes of the anti-terrorist operation" will flee the military theater, leaving their equipment and arms. But only the lucky ones will manage to escape. Extreme radicals in Kiev will ask who is to blame for the defeat. It is an easy guess - the Nazis will blame Poroshenko. They will charge him with not being sufficiently cruel in destroying the Novorossiya population and countering the opponents of the regime in Kiev and the cities under its control (especially if by that time there is a successful anti-Kievan rebellion in one of Novorossiya's million-strong cities).

[...]

True, to prevent Poroshenko from telling anyone what the Americans promised him and when - for instance, how they advised him to bomb Donbass into the Stone Age or how the destruction of the Boeing airliner was arranged - he will have to be destroyed. But hardly anyone will be surprised if a crowd tears him apart right in his residence after a series of defeats suffered by the Kievan troops accompanied by enormous losses.

[...]

To receive all these blessings it is necessary to engineer Poroshenko's disappearance. The Americans have already squeezed out of him everything they could. From today forward, only a real Nazi regime can continue the war and ensure the required number of deaths, refugees and destruction.

Thus, Poroshenko does not have a chance - everyone is interested in his downfall and almost everyone in his physical removal.

TL,DR Zdi se, da ruski analitiki v kratkem pričakujejo Porošenkovo truplo, vprašanje, ki se zastavlja pa je, v katerem lutkovnem gledališču bodo priredili predstavo za javnost - v Bolšoj Teatru ali Broadwayu?

Mariupol brani bataljon "AZOV", ki je neo-naci prostovoljski bataljon in del ministrstva za notranje zadeve. Tako da ja, neo-naciji so del oboroženih sil Ukrajine in to jih bo še teplo po glavi, ko se bo o tej vojni diskutiralo v Hagu.

Sicer pa:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine...

Če bi bili Ukrajinci pametni bi tem prostovoljcem dali malo bolj pametno komando in odstranili naci simbole. Pol bi tudi zmanjšali vpliv ruske propagande o nacijih iz Kijeva. Na tak način si pa sami delajo probleme in pogrevajo preteklost (SS Galizien, UNA). Poljaki pa tudi pri nas jo ne bi smeli pozabiti.

Mipe je 10. sep 2014 ob 12:10 izjavil:

Aha, ker ti ni všeč članek, ki samo povzema ugotovitve AI, napadaš njegovega objavitelja in bralce? Tipično kijevsko.

Poročilo AI omenja še marsikaj drugega, med drugim izvensodne usmrtitve, ki jih izvajajo moskovske okupacijske sile. Hotel sem vedeti čemu in sem ugotovil. Če ti kaj ni všeč ni moj problem

Mipe je 10. sep 2014 ob 12:35 izjavil:

Je tvoj problem, ker izkrivljaš dejstva. Izvensodne usmrtitve izvaja nekaj splinter skupin, pač vsaka stran ima svoje skrajneže. Razlika je le v tem, da Kijev svojim skrajnežem daje ukaze, zato je soodgovoren.

Razlika je predvsem v tem, da so moskovske fašistične okupacijske sile ljudi mučile in pobijale, ukrajinski neonacisti pa jih kvječemu ustrahujejo, včasih tudi kaj oropajo in podobno.
Nič od tega ni v redu, so pa zločini moskovskih okupatorjev toliko hujši, da tile ukrajinski neonaciji niso vredni omembe.

Cifix63 je 10. sep 2014 ob 12:51 izjavil:

Naziv teroristi si zasluži Kijev oz kijevska fašistična hunta na oblasti.

Kaj je fašizem in kaj je hunta?

Namig: prvo je prisotno v Rusiji in ne v Ukrajini, drugo ni prisotno ne pri enih in ne pri drugih.

Cifix63 je 10. sep 2014 ob 13:14 izjavil:

Dobro vemo kdo je bil tutor krvavega Majdana (100+ ljudi iz množice so ukazali poknit snajperistom, vsi z luknjo v čelu) - in sprožitve krvavega prevzema oblasti in od tu naprej vzroka in posledice.

Ja, vemo: Putinova marioneta v Kijevu.

Še vedno ne vemo kaj je fašizem in kaj je hunta? Čudno. Pa tako pametnega se delaš

Kako trolati američane: Russia moves ISS astronaut training to newly annexed Crimea

Vir

Separatisti imajo zdaj kanadske oklepnike. Po logiki rusofobov to pomeni, da je Kanada okupatorka Ukrajine.

"9 of these" ne pomeni nujno točno tega, pač pa takih. Ampak lep poskus diskreditacije.