Konflikt v Siriji

perci je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:42 izjavil:

Jst nic ne mislim - vem. Sem 3 tedne prezivel tam in govoril s kom, za razliko od tebe.

Torej si govoril s 10.000 ljudmi?
Vietnamska vojna se je končala pred 40 leti. Kitajski spor 25 let nazaj. Logika miško.

Americani so rabili testni poligon za novo orozje. Res super da testirajo novo orozje in se skrivajo za domnevnimu humanitarnimi razlogi.

Mr.B je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:51 izjavil:

Dejstvo 1 : če bi prebral kaj uvaža iz kitajske in kaj izvaža v Ameriko bi nehal kobasati...
Desjtvo 2 : Trumpi se je premislil o TTP "The TPP, a trade deal that was to involve 12 countries including the US, was supported by former President Barack Obama as a way to counter China's surging power in the region." Verjetno zaradi situacije kot je Vietnam.

Spelji se s tem sranjem v drugo temo.

Kitajec se je že usral, će ne veš.
http://www.rtvslo.si/gospodarstvo/borzn...

"Kitajski predsednik Ši Džinping je napovedal dodatno odpiranje kitajskega trga, bistveno znižanje uvoznih carin in spoštovanje intelektualne lastnine, dovoljen bo tudi vstop tujih partnerjev na domači trg. Zdi se, da je Ši ponudil roko Donaldu Trumpu, ki je v nedeljo po Twitterju sporočil, da bosta ZDA in Kitajska dosegli dogovor o perečih temah, kar zmanjšuje verjetnost trgovinske vojne med najmočnejšima državama sveta. "

Poldi112 je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:52 izjavil:

Kako že bo un otok problem za sosednje ekonomije?

Kotrolira trgovske poti.

perci je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:54 izjavil:

Faktor 100 dela svoje.

V vietnamski vojni je med drugim umrlo tudi milijon civilistov, v kitajski prakticno nic.

Vprasi se katera vojna bolj razdvaja v sloveniji, druga svetovna ali osamosvojitvena.

Logika misko.

Logika miško:
0–14 years 23.55% (male 11,909,326/female 10,735,324) (2017 est.)
15–64 years 70.33% (2017 est.)
65 and over 6.12% (male 2,281,923/female 3,601,075) (2017 est.)

Ne spomnijo se, ker so.... mrtvi.

Samuel je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:13 izjavil:

Glede Vietnama. Če vprašaš Vietnamca katere vojne se spomni, bo skoraj vsak rekel,da se spomni tiste s Kitajsko, ki je kasneje prišla.

In kaj ma veze katere se neposredno spomni?

Vprasanje je katera je pomembejsa v kolektivni zavesti.

V nasprotnem ne razumem zakaj to sploh omenjas v kontekstu ameriskih izvazanj demokracije.

Cez 70 let se noben iracan ne bo spomnil ameriske invazije. Kaksno vezo ima to s cimerkoli?

tikitoki je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:52 izjavil:

Americani so rabili testni poligon za novo orozje. Res super da testirajo novo orozje in se skrivajo za domnevnimu humanitarnimi razlogi.

Super, ne.

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/...

Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu made his way to the Duma, the lower house of parliament, on the eve of Defender of the Fatherland Day.

...

"We tested 162 types of contemporary and modernized weapons in Syria, which showed a high level of effectiveness," Shoigu said. Only 10 weapons systems performed below expectations, he added.

...

Shortly after Russia entered the conflict in September 2015, the country's navy fired cruise missiles at Syrian targets 900 miles away – an event that coincided with President Vladimir Putin's 63rd birthday.

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-using-sy...

Russia has tested over 600 new weapons and military equipment items on the battlefields of Syria, Russia’s Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov told the Interfax news agency Thursday.

Since the official start of airstrikes in Syria in late 2015, Russia’s armed forces have often used an apparently gratuitous range of arms to carry out strikes. Moscow has deployed multiple models of jets from all its major manufacturers, broadcasting operations of seemingly needless complexity—tweeting a video of warships launching a missile strike on western Syria from 930 miles away, in the Caspian Sea, for example.

...

"Practically all new items have passed through the Syrian theater of war in order for us to have an opportunity to see what their real characteristics are and how these weapons are behaving,” Borisov said at an arms expo outside of Moscow.

"We had to give up on a number of weapon items, because practice showed that they could not withstand the requirements that were demanded of them," Borisov said.

Ampak to je okej, ker "antiimperializem".

Kitajci in Vietnamci imajo dolgo dolgo zgodovino konfliktov.

Ask The Vietnamese About War, And They Think China, Not The U.S.

In one of the many war cemeteries in Lang Son, a city in northern Vietnam, Pham Thi Ky and her family light incense and offer prayers for her brother-in-law, who died 36 years ago in Vietnam's brief but bloody border war with China.

That 1979 war left more than 50,000 dead. There are other graves here, too. They fought and died against the French occupiers, then the Americans. But relative to China, those were brief battles.

No country weighs on Vietnam like China, and it has been that way for centuries. Has the conflict with China ever really ended, I ask Pham Thi Ky as she lights another candle.

"No," she says. Her daughter agrees. Her sister is even more emphatic. "It will never end. With the Chinese, how can it ever end?"

Vietnam's 2,000 year history with its northern neighbor is complex. There have been countless conflicts as well as shared culture. The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Chinese characters. China is also Vietnam's largest trading partner.

The two countries share a communist ideology shaped in part by their shared history, an ideology largely abandoned by the rest of the world. That helps explain why the 1979 border war is something neither government likes to talk about. But Nguyen Duy Thuc, a veteran of that war, is happy to.

"On the morning of the attack, February 17th, we were sleeping when the Chinese artillery started, then we all ran to our posts," he says. "Some were dressed, others didn't even have time to put their pants on, they just ran to their posts to fight."

Vietnamese forces travel toward the country's northern border during a brief, bloody war with China in 1979.
Alan Dawson/Bettmann/CORBIS
At least 200,000 Chinese troops poured into northern Vietnam all along the border. China was aiming to punish Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia the month before to oust the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. There were so many Chinese attacking, Nguyen Duy Thuc remembers, that the soldiers in his bunker "fired our AK-47s until the muzzles turned red and they couldn't fire anymore."

But the Chinese kept coming; eventually his bunker was overrun. The Chinese, he says, pumped gas into the ventilation system. There were 800 people, including soldiers, women and children, who fled the fighting in his bunker, Nguyen says.

Only he and two others managed to escape. After nearly a month, the Chinese withdrew, though border clashes continued for the next decade. And Nguyen Duy Thuc hasn't forgotten. If he catches his wife trying to watch a Chinese movie, he turns it off.

Memories of that war, and the many other bouts of invasion, occupation and retaliation throughout history, color Vietnam's relationship with China.

Flight Attendant On Saigon Evacuation: You Wanted 'To Help Every Child'
That's especially true now, with the two countries at odds over what Vietnam views as Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea. When China parked an oil rig in contested waters last year, Vietnam upped its official anti-China rhetoric.

And anti-China rioting left at least a dozen dead, including four Taiwanese mistaken for Chinese. As tension grew, and Chinese and Vietnamese boats played a dangerous game of chicken near the rig, some in the border town of Lang Son grew worried. They feared a repeat of what happened in 1979.

"Last year, we were very frightened. We started stockpiling rice and food. I was very worried that there would be war," says Pham Thi Ky, the woman at the cemetery.

Back in 1979, she says she was forced to flee with nothing but the clothes on her back, so this time she wanted to be prepared. She even went to the bank to withdraw a large sum of money, just in case. But the bank wouldn't give it to her, apparently fearing a run.

Vietnam isn't the only one worried.

The Obama administration's "pivot toward Asia" is prompted, in part, by the idea of trying to contain China's expansionism, which has its Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.

In the South China Sea, China continues to build on several disputed islands and reefs. In April, satellite photos revealed China was constructing a 2-mile-long, military-grade runway on Fiery Cross Reef, prompting howls of protest from the Philippines and Vietnam, both of which claim the island as their own.

"We think this can be solved diplomatically, but just because the Philippines or Vietnam are not as large as China doesn't mean that they can just be elbowed aside," President Obama said.

Duong Trung Quoc, a member of Vietnam's National Assembly and editor of the magazine Past & Present, says, "I think China is not only Vietnam's problem, but the world's problem right now."

Duong says he admires how China appears to be the only civilization in history to have forced its way back onto the world stage after an interregnum.

"It didn't happen with Greece, or India," he says. "But China has a chance."

And that's a problem, he contends, because China still thinks the way it used to back when it was on top.

"China thinks it is at the center. The conquerer. It wants to turn everybody else into its subordinates," he says. Don't believe China, Duong says, when it appears to be playing nice. It's a trap. The Vietnamese, he says, should know.

"After the war, the Vietnamese and the Americans could reconcile. Vietnam and France can reconcile. Veterans from both sides can sit down together and talk. Vietnamese and Chinese veterans hardly ever sit down together," he says.

Why is this?

"The Vietnamese have had too much experience with the Chinese. The Vietnamese can't trust the Chinese. We've had too much practice," he adds.

Few in Vietnam's government talk so openly about the perceived threat from their northern neighbor. They're wary of igniting more protests, like those last year. And Vietnam's Communist Party still looks to China as a model of how to keep an authoritarian state in power in the Internet age. But anti-Chinese sentiment among ordinary Vietnamese continues to grow.

Vo Cao Loi lives about a mile from the South China Sea -- which the Vietnamese simply call the East Sea -- in the central Vietnam city of Danang, where the first U.S. combat troops landed in 1965.

He says he's a survivor of a massacre next to My Lai, one that claimed 97 lives, including his mother. He no longer considers the Americans enemies, but rather as friends. Allies, even, against Vietnam's longtime enemy. He believes the Chinese have taken something that belongs to Vietnam.

"The Spratly and Paracels (islands) are still partly occupied," he says. "Of course at some point we have to put our differences aside, but we have to get those islands back first. Because it belongs to our ancestors."

It doesn't take him long to acknowledge that probably won't happen.

"They want to spread their control. They will never give back what they took," he adds. "Vietnam wants to take it back, but the Chinese are strong. So our struggle will last a long time. How long? I can't tell."

Samuel je 14. apr 2018 ob 22:08 izjavil:

Kitajci in Vietnamci imajo dolgo dolgo zgodovino konfliktov.

Ask The Vietnamese About War, And They Think China, Not The U.S.

In one of the many war cemeteries in Lang Son, a city in northern Vietnam, Pham Thi Ky and her family light incense and offer prayers for her brother-in-law, who died 36 years ago in Vietnam's brief but bloody border war with China.

That 1979 war left more than 50,000 dead. There are other graves here, too. They fought and died against the French occupiers, then the Americans. But relative to China, those were brief battles.

No country weighs on Vietnam like China, and it has been that way for centuries. Has the conflict with China ever really ended, I ask Pham Thi Ky as she lights another candle.

"No," she says. Her daughter agrees. Her sister is even more emphatic. "It will never end. With the Chinese, how can it ever end?"

Vietnam's 2,000 year history with its northern neighbor is complex. There have been countless conflicts as well as shared culture. The Temple of Literature in Hanoi is a good example. It was built by the Vietnamese King Ly Thánh Tông in 1070 to honor the Chinese philosopher Confucius. The teachings on the walls are written in Chinese characters. China is also Vietnam's largest trading partner.

The two countries share a communist ideology shaped in part by their shared history, an ideology largely abandoned by the rest of the world. That helps explain why the 1979 border war is something neither government likes to talk about. But Nguyen Duy Thuc, a veteran of that war, is happy to.

"On the morning of the attack, February 17th, we were sleeping when the Chinese artillery started, then we all ran to our posts," he says. "Some were dressed, others didn't even have time to put their pants on, they just ran to their posts to fight."

Vietnamese forces travel toward the country's northern border during a brief, bloody war with China in 1979.
Alan Dawson/Bettmann/CORBIS
At least 200,000 Chinese troops poured into northern Vietnam all along the border. China was aiming to punish Vietnam for its invasion of Cambodia the month before to oust the Chinese-backed Khmer Rouge. There were so many Chinese attacking, Nguyen Duy Thuc remembers, that the soldiers in his bunker "fired our AK-47s until the muzzles turned red and they couldn't fire anymore."

But the Chinese kept coming; eventually his bunker was overrun. The Chinese, he says, pumped gas into the ventilation system. There were 800 people, including soldiers, women and children, who fled the fighting in his bunker, Nguyen says.

Only he and two others managed to escape. After nearly a month, the Chinese withdrew, though border clashes continued for the next decade. And Nguyen Duy Thuc hasn't forgotten. If he catches his wife trying to watch a Chinese movie, he turns it off.

Memories of that war, and the many other bouts of invasion, occupation and retaliation throughout history, color Vietnam's relationship with China.

Flight Attendant On Saigon Evacuation: You Wanted 'To Help Every Child'
That's especially true now, with the two countries at odds over what Vietnam views as Chinese expansionism in the South China Sea. When China parked an oil rig in contested waters last year, Vietnam upped its official anti-China rhetoric.

And anti-China rioting left at least a dozen dead, including four Taiwanese mistaken for Chinese. As tension grew, and Chinese and Vietnamese boats played a dangerous game of chicken near the rig, some in the border town of Lang Son grew worried. They feared a repeat of what happened in 1979.

"Last year, we were very frightened. We started stockpiling rice and food. I was very worried that there would be war," says Pham Thi Ky, the woman at the cemetery.

Back in 1979, she says she was forced to flee with nothing but the clothes on her back, so this time she wanted to be prepared. She even went to the bank to withdraw a large sum of money, just in case. But the bank wouldn't give it to her, apparently fearing a run.

Vietnam isn't the only one worried.

The Obama administration's "pivot toward Asia" is prompted, in part, by the idea of trying to contain China's expansionism, which has its Southeast Asian neighbors and Japan worried.

In the South China Sea, China continues to build on several disputed islands and reefs. In April, satellite photos revealed China was constructing a 2-mile-long, military-grade runway on Fiery Cross Reef, prompting howls of protest from the Philippines and Vietnam, both of which claim the island as their own.

"We think this can be solved diplomatically, but just because the Philippines or Vietnam are not as large as China doesn't mean that they can just be elbowed aside," President Obama said.

Duong Trung Quoc, a member of Vietnam's National Assembly and editor of the magazine Past & Present, says, "I think China is not only Vietnam's problem, but the world's problem right now."

Duong says he admires how China appears to be the only civilization in history to have forced its way back onto the world stage after an interregnum.

"It didn't happen with Greece, or India," he says. "But China has a chance."

And that's a problem, he contends, because China still thinks the way it used to back when it was on top.

"China thinks it is at the center. The conquerer. It wants to turn everybody else into its subordinates," he says. Don't believe China, Duong says, when it appears to be playing nice. It's a trap. The Vietnamese, he says, should know.

"After the war, the Vietnamese and the Americans could reconcile. Vietnam and France can reconcile. Veterans from both sides can sit down together and talk. Vietnamese and Chinese veterans hardly ever sit down together," he says.

Why is this?

"The Vietnamese have had too much experience with the Chinese. The Vietnamese can't trust the Chinese. We've had too much practice," he adds.

Few in Vietnam's government talk so openly about the perceived threat from their northern neighbor. They're wary of igniting more protests, like those last year. And Vietnam's Communist Party still looks to China as a model of how to keep an authoritarian state in power in the Internet age. But anti-Chinese sentiment among ordinary Vietnamese continues to grow.

Vo Cao Loi lives about a mile from the South China Sea -- which the Vietnamese simply call the East Sea -- in the central Vietnam city of Danang, where the first U.S. combat troops landed in 1965.

He says he's a survivor of a massacre next to My Lai, one that claimed 97 lives, including his mother. He no longer considers the Americans enemies, but rather as friends. Allies, even, against Vietnam's longtime enemy. He believes the Chinese have taken something that belongs to Vietnam.

"The Spratly and Paracels (islands) are still partly occupied," he says. "Of course at some point we have to put our differences aside, but we have to get those islands back first. Because it belongs to our ancestors."

It doesn't take him long to acknowledge that probably won't happen.

"They want to spread their control. They will never give back what they took," he adds. "Vietnam wants to take it back, but the Chinese are strong. So our struggle will last a long time. How long? I can't tell."

Si se nalezel Paxia

Samuel je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:53 izjavil:

Poldi112 je 14. apr 2018 ob 21:52 izjavil:

Kako že bo un otok problem za sosednje ekonomije?

Kotrolira trgovske poti.

To se sliši precej benigno.

A gremo raje nazaj na Sirijo? :)

Sej je ista stvar. Zdejle je v siriji tipicno hladnovojni spopad. Al kdo res misli, da se resuje civiliste?

Hladna vojna ni bila samo to. Bila je iskanje geopoliticnega ravnotezja med dvema jedrskima velesilama.

In to, kar se danes dogaja, je zelo podobna stvar. In Trump gre cez mejo.

Podobno kot iskanje tistih plinov v Iraku. Če nebi bilo tam rusije, bi Fašisti okupirali del sirije, del bi okupirali turki, če bi kurdi dobili preveč, ostalo pa zmerna opozicija, ki bi dobila na volitvah 90+ % glasov. Iran bi bil bistveno bolj blokiran.

Sicer bi rekel, da so morali ti trije objekti biti zelo utrjeni, da so rabili 100+ raket.

Bomo pa videli jutri zjutraj, če bodo spet napadli. Verjetnost bolj mala, ampak če bodo videli da je en inkubator cel, bodo poslali novo pošiljko.

Lahko je legitimen zate, po nekih tvojih merilih, kar pa ne pomeni, da je legalen. Brez odobritve VS OZN je to zločinski napad na druhgo državo.

Aja, bogi američani hočjo reševat civiliste pa jim rusi vedno dajo veto.

Ima kdo kakšne bolj točne podatke o teh treh lokacijah. Meni se zdi presneto veliko exploziva...
57 x 1.9mil$ US Navy Tomahawk land attack missiles (TLAMs) = Conventional: 1,000 pounds (450 kg) high explosive
19x 1.4mil$ AGM-158B Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile - Extended Range (JASSM-ER) = 453 kg Net explosive quantity class
? x 0.9 $ MdCN naval version of the SCALP = Storm Shadow http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/ncm/
? x 0.9 $ Storm Shadow = 450 kilograms (990 lb) BROACH (Bomb Royal Ordnance Augmented Charge

O kakšnem overkillu pa je govora? So kar uspešni zadetki na točno določene cilje...

s1m0n je 15. apr 2018 ob 11:25 izjavil:

O kakšnem overkillu pa je govora? So kar uspešni zadetki na točno določene cilje...

Glej 450 kg ixploziva ni ravno zdravo za bajto, katerokoli. Tudi 200 kg eksploziva ni ravno zdravo.
400kg exploziva v zaprtem prostoru je tudi dovolj da se komnketno zruši tudi še tako dobro narejen bunker.
Če bi pogledal slike, bi videl da so bajte dobesedno zradirane.
Za primer , kaj naredita dve Mk82, ki vsebujeta na "89 kg of high explosive" na odprtem prostoru..
Vir : http://characterisationexplosiveweapons...

Po drugi strani, kaj pravijo mediji ki so jih amerikaci bombandirali ... :
US-led Syria strikes: A distraction from Trump's troubles?

Is chemical inspectors' OPCW mission in Syria still relevant?

@Mr.B, kje je pa govora kaj je bilo odvržejo in koliko česar? Mediji niso pravi vir za te podatke, prav tako ne Sirija in Rusija...

Pac-Man je 15. apr 2018 ob 11:41 izjavil:

perci je 15. apr 2018 ob 00:55 izjavil:

Aja, bogi američani hočjo reševat civiliste pa jim rusi vedno dajo veto.

Zaenkrat so edini, ki kakorkoli otročje, nekaj naredijo okrog assadove uporabe kemičnega orožja.

Assadove? A to vemo, ali so to kavboji, ki jim dol visi za mednarodno pravo, rekli?

Kaj pa, če še Kitajci izstrelijo par raket na USA, ker USA sistematično muči zapornike? A boš tudi rekel, da vsaj nekaj naredijo glede USA zločinov proti človeštvu? Ali če bi Rusi spustili par raket na USA tam okoli 1980, čist tko, da američanom dajo vedeti, da uporaba bojnih strupiv ni ok? Ali pa če spustimo par raket na Izrael, ko uporabljajo bel fosfor?

To, kar zagovarjaš, je divji zahod. Zagovarjaš metode, za katere so USA pravniki obešali nemce po 2. svetovni vojni. In ti jim ploskaš. Patetično.

https://twitter.com/THE_47th/status/985...

Nice catch! the video that Assad media posted showing Assad walking to his office at 9am was not taken that morning.

s1m0n je 15. apr 2018 ob 11:43 izjavil:

@Mr.B, kje je pa govora kaj je bilo odvržejo in koliko česar? Mediji niso pravi vir za te podatke, prav tako ne Sirija in Rusija...

Allied navies and air forces launched 105 TLAM, JASSM-ER, MdCN, Storm Shadow, and Scalp missiles into Syria
Syrian and Russian forces said most missiles were intercepted, but the Pentagon said none were intercepted
US, UK, and French forces fired a variety of sea- and air-launched long-range weapons during a punitive strike against three Syrian targets in response to President Bashar al Assad's reported continued use of chemical weapons.

The strikes began at about 2100 h EST on 13 April.

Against an alleged chemical weapons research and development centre in Barzeh, near Damascus, US forces launched 76 missiles: 57 US Navy Tomahawk land attack missiles (TLAMs) and 19 AGM-158B Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile – Extended Range (JASSM-ER), Lieutenant General Kenneth McKenzie, director of the US Joint Staff, told reporters the next morning.

Pac-Man je 15. apr 2018 ob 11:47 izjavil:

Mr.B je 15. apr 2018 ob 11:39 izjavil:

Deblo, kot sem napisal že včeraj - teža bojne glave ni masa eksploziva. Kar ti na začetku ni jasno, pri mk82 pa ti kar naenkrat postane.

Pac-Man je 14. apr 2018 ob 16:57 izjavil:

Eksploziva je manj. Tole je za JASSM, ki je sicer penetrator in malo ekstremna v tem smislu. Ima pa znane podatke bojne glave.

AGM-158 JASSM @ Wikipedia

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military...

The production JASSM contains the WDU-42/B (J-1000), a 1000-pound class, penetrating warhead with 240 pounds of AFX-757. AFX-757 is an extremely insensitive explosive developed by the Air Force Research Laboratory/High Explosives Research and Development Facility, Eglin AFB, Florida.

120 kg eksploziva v 500 kg bojni glavi.

Mk83 ima 200 kg eksploziva v 460 kg bombi.

Mark 83 bomb @ Wikipedia

Dva cilja (okej, vsaj en) sta podzemna in ni veliko videti, nadzemni pa je precej velik (železobetonski?) kompleks. In od njega ni prav veliko ostalo.

Paxi dej raje najdi twixic vir.
Mk 82 je za primerjavo .....kaj naredi 2x 87 KG exploziva...
Wiki pravi : :
With a nominal weight of 500 lb (227 kg), it is the one of the smallest in current service, and one of the most common air-dropped weapons in the world.

Weight 500 pounds (227 kg)
Filling weight 192 pounds (87 kg)

Torej v Bombi je 87 Kg exploziva.

V raketah, ki so bile včeraj uporabljene, je podatek o količini exploziva točen.