Ukrajina Part II

Lonsarg je 23. feb 2022 ob 07:34 izjavil:

Glavno krivdo nosijo kar lepo Ukrajinci sami. Ce si zraven take velesile na sveze prvic stran od vpliva te velesile, moras pac sprejeti tudi kak komromis, ne pa izbrati mascevanja za nazaj kot so ga oni.

Ampak ocitno se je v njih pac desetletje kuhalo sovrastvo do Rusov, najbrz res edino vojna sprosti te napetosti prebivalstva.

Rusi so jim vzeli vsaj 20 let ekonomskega razvoja, ker so jim onemogocali razvoj institucij, samostojne ekonomske politike itd. Sovrastvo je popolnoma upraviceno. Preberi so govor Putina - tip je nor.

Sovrastvo je popolnoma upraviceno.

Ampak vcasih se je v lastno dobro treba zadrzati glede tega sovrastva pa kljub vsemu z Rusijo sprejeti kak kompromis.

Putin je taktično dobro izvedel to "napotitev" vojske/"mirovnikov". Najprej je potipal razpoloženje EU in usa, pripravljenost na sodelovanje v vojni. Ko je ugotovil, da bodo samo ukrajinci kanonfuter, je pa naredil, kar je naredil.
Sedaj ostaja še samo vprašanje, kako daleč bodo šli z vojsko.

Ti dve regiji je bil cost zgolj politicni. Vsak nadaljni kilometer pomeni 100k plus mrtvih.

Fritz je 23. feb 2022 ob 07:28 izjavil:

Napovedovali so invazijo, zavzetje Kijeva, ruske tanke na poljski meji itn. Kaj od tega se je zgodilo? Rusi so poslali vojaške enote na območje, ki že tako ni bilo pod nadzorom Ukrajine in katerega so priznali kot neodvisnega ter z njim sklenili sporazum o napotitvi vojske. Če je to invazija, potem ta pojem ne razumemo enako.

To, da država ne spoštuje mednarodnega prava in neizpodbitno krši ZN člen 2(4) pomeni enostavno, da gre za invazijo.

To kako ti in tvoj prijatelj Putin to opravičujeta ne igra nobene vloge.

Sovraštvo do nekega naroda, skupine ipd. ni najbolj zdrava reč. Nikoli ni bila.

kow je 23. feb 2022 ob 07:43 izjavil:

Fritz je 23. feb 2022 ob 07:42 izjavil:

Težko rečem, da je bila neka huda revščina v Ukrajini.

Predlagam ti obisk kaksne mentalne institucije, ker to je pa najbolj nora izjava v celi temi.

A resde...

1991 to 2000
On 24 August 1991, Ukraine established its independence from the Soviet Union.[53] The new state's economy suffered huge output declines and soaring inflation in the following years.[54] Ukraine saw hyperinflation in the early 1990s because of a lack of access to financial markets and massive monetary expansion to finance government spending, while output declined sharply.[54] Huge output declines and soaring inflation was at the time common to most former Soviet republics, but Ukraine was among the hardest hit by these problems.[54] In response to this hyperinflation the National Bank of Ukraine replaced the national currency, the karbovanets, with the hryvnia in September 1996 and pledged to keep it stable in relation to the US dollar.[54][55] The currency remained unstable through the late 1990s, particularly during the 1998 Russian financial crisis.[54]

Deep recession during the 1990s led to a relatively high poverty rate, but beginning in 2001, as a result seven straight years of economic growth, the standard of living for most citizens increased. A World Bank report of 2007 noted: "Ukraine recorded one of the sharpest declines in poverty of any transition economy in recent years. The poverty rate, measured against an absolute poverty line, fell from a high of 32% in 2001 to 8% in 2005.[56] The UN noted that Ukraine had overcome absolute poverty, and that there was only relative poverty in 2009.[57][check quotation syntax]

2000 to 2014
Main article: 2008–09 Ukrainian financial crisis
Ukraine stabilised by the early 2000s.[54] The year 2000 saw the first year of economic growth since Ukraine's independence.[37] The economy continued to grow thanks to 50% growth of exports between 2000 and 2008[37] – mainly exports from the traditional industries of metals, metallurgy, engineering, chemicals, and food.[37] Between 2001 and 2008, metals and chemicals prices boomed because of fast international economic growth, while the price of natural gas imported from Russia remained low.[37] Monetization also helped to drive the economic boom Ukraine experienced between 2000 and 2008.[37] Attracted in part by relatively high interest-rates, foreign cash was injected[by whom?] into Ukraine's economy and money supply grew rapidly: from 2001 to 2010 broad, money increased at an annual rate of 35%.[54] In 2006 and 2007, credit growth averaged 73%.[54] An effect of this was that Ukrainian assets began to look like a large economic bubble and high inflation started to damage Ukraine's export competitiveness.[54] The ratio of credit to GDP grew extremely fast – from 7 to almost 80 percent over just several[quantify] years.[37] From 2000 to 2007, Ukraine's real growth averaged 7.4%.[37] This growth was driven by domestic demand: orientation toward consumption, other structural change, and financial development.[37] Domestic demand grew in constant prices by almost 15% annually.[37] It was supported by expansionary—procyclical—fiscal policy.[37] Ukraine benefited from very low labor costs, slightly lower tariffs, and high prices of its main export goods, but at the same time faced notably higher non-tariff barriers.[37] Russia has not charged Ukraine below world market prices for natural gas since the end of 2008; this led to various Russia–Ukraine gas disputes.[37][58][59][60]

Ukraine suffered severely in the economic crisis of 2008; because of it Ukraine experienced a drought in capital flows.[54] The hryvnia, which had been pegged at a rate of 5:1 to the U.S. dollar, was devalued to 8:1, and was stabilized at that ratio until the beginning of 2014.[61] In 2008, Ukraine's economy ranked 45th in the world according to 2008 GDP (nominal), with a total nominal GDP of US$188 billion, and nominal per-capita GDP of US$3,900. There was 3% unemployment at the end of 2008; over the first 9 months of 2009, unemployment averaged 9.4%.[62] The final official unemployment rates over 2009 and 2010 were 8.8% and 8.4%,[63] although the CIA World Factbook notes a "large number of unregistered or underemployed workers".[63] Ukraine's GDP fell by 15% in 2009.[54]

The Ukrainian economy recovered in the first quarter of 2010[34] due to the recovery of the world economy and increasing prices for metals.[59] Ukraine's real GDP growth in 2010 was 4.3%, leading to per-capita PPP GDP of US$6,700.[63] In 2011, Ukrainian politicians estimated that 40% of the country's economy is shadow economy.[64][65]

In the summer of 2013, Ukrainian exports to Russia fell substantially due to Russia's stricter customs controls.[39]

By October 2013, the Ukrainian economy had become stuck in recession.[38] Moody's downgraded Ukraine's credit rating to Caa1 (poor quality and very high credit risk) in September 2013.[38][66][67] At the time, swap markets rated Ukraine's default probability over the next five years at 50 percent.[38] In 2013, Ukraine saw no growth in GDP.[41]

After Euromaidan: 2014 to present
Due to the loss of Ukraine's largest trading partner, Russia, over the annexation of Crimea in March 2014, and exacerbated by the War in Donbass which started in April 2014[nb 1] Ukraine's economy shrank by 6.8% in 2014;[40] it had been expected to decline by 8%.[42] A Ukrainian government report stated early in February 2016 that Ukraine's economy had shrunk by 10.4% in 2015.[69] For 2015, the National Bank of Ukraine had expected a further decline of 11.6%, and the World Bank anticipated a 12% shrinkage.[43] The World Bank forecast growth of 1% in 2016.[70]

Early in February 2014, the National Bank of Ukraine changed the hryvnia into a fluctuating/floating currency in an attempt to meet IMF requirements and to try to enforce a stable price for the currency in the Forex market.[71] In 2014 and 2015, the hryvnia lost about 70% of its value against the U.S. dollar.[61][72]

The IMF agreed to a four-year loan program worth about $17.5 billion in eight tranches over 2015 and 2016, subject to conditions which involved economic reforms.[73] However, due to lack of progress on reforms, only two tranches worth $6.7 billion were paid in 2015. A third tranche of $1.7 billion was provisionally scheduled in June 2016 subject to the bringing into law of 19 further reform measures.[74][75] Some[quantify] western analysts believe that large foreign loans are not encouraging reform, but enabling the corrupt extraction of funds out of the country.[76]

Economy of Ukraine @ Wikipedia

Bajdon: "Kdo je ta Putin, kdo mu je dovolil, da kar priznava nove države na teritoriji drugih držav?"

Bom jaz odgovoril g.Bajdonu: "G.Bajdon, primer priznanja LNR in DNR od strani Rusije, je izjemen primer, primer sui generis, treba je pa upoštevati tudi situacijo na terenu teh novih držav, kjer je Ukrajina očitno izvajala in pripravljala še večji genocid nad lokalnim prebivalstvom."*

*Kof, kof: "Kosovo*" hihihihi.

Fritz je 23. feb 2022 ob 07:10 izjavil:

LightBit je 22. feb 2022 ob 22:33 izjavil:

korenje3 je 22. feb 2022 ob 22:20 izjavil:

če bi NATO članice podpisale, da se ne bodo več širili proti vzhodu bi bil danes mir.

Itak, tako kot se je govorilo da je vojska ob meji samo na vajah.

Isto tako se je govorilo, da bo invazija na celo Ukrajino, v bistvu pa se na terenu ni nič kaj veliko spremenilo, bolj v razmerjih med akterji.

Kljub temu da je kot pokvarjena kaseta Biden ves čas napovedoval invazije, se očitno ni tako zelo zmotil.
Kolikor jaz vem niti ni rekel da zagotovo na celo Ukrajino, ampak tudi to se še lahko zgodi.

Zakaj si zacel z 2015 in Minsk 2. Nisi omenil Minsk 1?

Fritz je 23. feb 2022 ob 08:55 izjavil:

Saj ne rečem, da je invazija nemogoča. Vsekakor pa ni v interesu Rusije. Koliko teh 'analitikov' pa je napovedovalo priznanje LNR/DNR?

V interesu Rusije verjetno ne. Vprašanje pa je tudi kaj se Putinu po glavi mota. Noben "analitik" ni jasnoviden.

@donvtoc Tukaj verjetno velja "The enemy of my enemy is my friend", kar se je sicer že večkrat kasneje maščevalo.

Paco začenja novo 16 urno izmeno dežurnega trola na st.

Zanimivo kako nekateri ne vidite, da je zelo velika verjetnost invazije in zavzetje celotne ukrajine. No, vas bo pa presenetilo, ko se bo zgodilo.

IgorCardanof je 23. feb 2022 ob 09:34 izjavil:

Zanimivo kako nekateri ne vidite, da je zelo velika verjetnost invazije in zavzetje celotne ukrajine. No, vas bo pa presenetilo, ko se bo zgodilo.

Sedaj drži, da je velika verjetnost zasedbe celotnih regij Luhansk in Donjeck.

Bernie Sanders, Rusijo je razglasil za avtoritarno petrodržavo, ki ji je treba blokirat financiranje.

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1...

Ampak folk še kar veršteha.

donvitoc je 23. feb 2022 ob 09:41 izjavil:

Ja ja, Putin je dobesedno Hitler. Drugega MSMjevci itak ne znate papagajit.
Nasprotniki vojn imamo dejanske argumente:
Pol miljona mrtvih otrok, majhna cena za širjenje človeških pravic
https://www.democracynow.org/2004/7/30/...

Podpiraš človeka, ki pravi, da je Ukrajina Leninova boljševistična tvorba in da se naj Ukrajinci pazijo dekomunizacije, torej uničenja Ukrajine in pripojitev k Rusiji. To je najava genocida.
Si pač ekstremno mentalno ubog osebek, ki konstantno momlja o MSMju in kaže s prstom nekam drugam.
S podporo takšne Putinove politike je lahko Putin samo naci, ti pa kot podpornik nacist.

Toliko o temu kdo zagovarja genicidno politiko.

Ti jo.

kow je 23. feb 2022 ob 09:45 izjavil:

Glede na to, da imajo Rusi samo samo vojaske vaje, pricakujemo da bodo teh 150k vojakov kmalu vrnili v vojaske baze po celi Rusiji. Ali pa so to vecletne vojaske vaje?
Se najbolj me pa zanima koliko casa bodo trajale ruske vojaske vaje v Belorusiji, lol.

Ukrajina je napovedala vojno delu ki se hoče odcepiti, Rusija je potrdila njihovo samostojnost. Kot ko smo šli mi stran od juge, in če bi nas npr. avstrija, italija, madžarska... podprli pri naši demokratski odločitvi.

Ni popolnoma nobene razlike, le MSM hlapci delajo histerijo ker američani izgubljajo svetovno nadvlado. Petrodolar pada, izguba trga za plin in nafto... velik trn v peti največje demokracije na planetu.

NMH je 23. feb 2022 ob 09:52 izjavil:

Si pač ekstremno mentalno ubog osebek, ki konstantno momlja o MSMju in kaže s prstom nekam drugam.
S podporo takšne Putinove politike je lahko Putin samo naci, ti pa kot podpornik nacist.

Toliko o temu kdo zagovarja genicidno politiko.

Ti jo.

Spet ne delaš drugega kot papagajenje neodvisnih MSM. Isto kot ko so začeli vojno nad arabci, imajo WMD, nas sovražijo ker imamo svobodo, so teroristi, so dobesedno Hitler... čisto vsakič vas osle znova zvlečejo na led. Toliko o mentalnih sposobnostih.

Ja, pol miljona mrtvih otrok ni genocid ampak demokracija.

A je NATO in USA že našla WMD v Iraku?

Samo to me zanima iskreno povedano, ker to kar USA in NATO rečejo je 100% res baje!

kow je 23. feb 2022 ob 10:00 izjavil:

In ta del ozemlja je blizu Belorusije?

Ne vidim, da bi se po vojaški plati v Belorusiji dogajalo to, kar se dogaja ob zahodni meji Rusije, kjer so ruske enote zapustile tabore in se napotile proti meji.

Fritz je 23. feb 2022 ob 10:04 izjavil:

Ne vidim, da bi se po vojaški plati v Belorusiji dogajalo to, kar se dogaja ob zahodni meji Rusije, kjer so ruske enote zapustile tabore in se napotile proti meji.

Bom začel zbirat te tvoje veleumne. Čez kaka 2 tedna zna bit zanimivo pogledat nazaj.

kow je 23. feb 2022 ob 10:06 izjavil:

Fritz je 23. feb 2022 ob 10:04 izjavil:

kow je 23. feb 2022 ob 10:00 izjavil:

In ta del ozemlja je blizu Belorusije?

Ne vidim, da bi se po vojaški plati v Belorusiji dogajalo to, kar se dogaja ob zahodni meji Rusije, kjer so ruske enote zapustile tabore in se napotile proti meji.

Torej lahko pricakujemo, da bodo ruski vojaki v nekaj tednih odsli domov? Kaj ruski vojaki sploh delajo v Belorusiji?

Karkoli hočejo, dokler se Belorusija s tem strinja.

Mimogrede, zahodni MSM poročajo, da je Putin s priznanjem DNR/LNR pokopal sporazum iz Minska.


Naj prevedem, sporazum je bil tak kot je bil in kot ga je Ukrajina ob posredovanju EU podpisala. Če jim ni bil všeč, ga pač ne bi podpisali. Torej so delali s figo v žepu in se sedaj čudijo posledicam.

In ta napaka je tudi univerzalen odgovor? Nihce tukaj ne pravi, da je kar receta NATO in ZDA 100% res.

Ne gre se za to, gre se za to da verjamemo NATU in USA kakorkoli da imata dobrobit ubogih Ukrajincev v mislih... Tako kot so imeli dobrobit Iračanov, Libijcev itd... naj pustijo in NATO se naj ukvarja z državami KI SO V NATU, ne pa z Ukrajino...Ukrajinci se pa naj zmenijo s Putinom, če so provocirali naj fašejo...

Mato989 je 23. feb 2022 ob 10:13 izjavil:

In ta napaka je tudi univerzalen odgovor? Nihce tukaj ne pravi, da je kar receta NATO in ZDA 100% res.

Ne gre se za to, gre se za to da verjamemo NATU in USA kakorkoli da imata dobrobit ubogih Ukrajincev v mislih... Tako kot so imeli dobrobit Iračanov, Libijcev itd... naj pustijo in NATO se naj ukvarja z državami KI SO V NATU, ne pa z Ukrajino...Ukrajinci se pa naj zmenijo s Putinom, če so provocirali naj fašejo...

Invazija na irak je celo poslabšala odnose med zda in evropo, tako da ta z irakom ni imela veliko.
Koga so ukrajinci provocirali, to kar ti predlagaš bi bil diktat.